Finding Success without Stress Through Vedanta with Gautam Jain

with Gautam Jain

Jan 31, 2025 · 00:32:28

Welcome to The Total Entrepreneur Mind, Body, Spirit, where we turn cutting-edge science into practical strategies for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Dr. John Torrance, entrepreneur, Inc. 5000 honoree, and professor of entrepreneurial practice at Syracuse University's Whitman School of Management. Each episode, we dive into mental, physical, and spiritual health with expert guests offering actionable insights to help you thrive and perform at your highest level. Let's get started. Today's guest is Gautam Jain, who is head of Vedanta in USA and a senior protégé of A. Parthasarathy. Gautam completed a brilliant academic career in the US, and then upon graduation, he declined lucrative offers from leading multinational corporations and returned to India to learn under Mr. Parthasarathy. Gautam has dedicated almost 3 decades to full-time study, research, and teaching of ancient wisdom and its practical application in life and business. He is currently in the U.S. to head the self-management educational program. Gautam has lectured to premier organizations and universities, including YPO, YPO Gold, Apple, Amazon, JPMorgan Chase, IBM, Oracle, Goldman Sachs, AT&T, Princeton, and MIT. Gautam is an acclaimed resource for numerous organizations in both North and Latin America. and he has been for over a decade. He's also been featured on PBS and ABC for his work in this area. Gautam, welcome. It's really great to have you, and I'm excited for our conversation.

Thank you. Excited to be here.

Yeah. So, so first thing is to tell us what Vedanta is.

So Vedanta is an ancient philosophy. The word Vedanta actually means the ultimate knowledge. Veda means knowledge. And anta means the end. So more practically, Vedanta is the highest wisdom. It's an ancient wisdom which teaches you how to be successful, the principles behind success, but without the stress, which is what everybody wants, which is why it's the highest knowledge. And ultimately, of course, it talks about self-actualization, fulfilling your purpose as a human being. So it gives a complete wisdom from all counts, material, emotional, and internal.

That's great. So you mentioned success without stress, and it seems like those two go hand in hand, and it's hard to have success without the stress. So talk to us a little bit about that.

Well, actually, they don't seem to go hand in hand at all because people who are successful are completely stressed out. And those who seem to be slightly peaceful, or they don't seem to have that action and dynamism, you know. Even if you look at it at a large scale, let's say you look at the Western world, which is more productive and more successful materially, without question, right? But by their own admission, they've lost their peace of mind, their calmness. And if you look at the Eastern part of the world, I studied this philosophy at an academy in India between 2 large cities of Mumbai and Pune. It's a little rural area, and the people there are relatively peaceful. They're really, you know, the— we are between 2 villages there, and they're peaceful. But none of us would go and live there because there's no dynamism, there's no production, there's no prosperity. But they are peaceful, they're relatively happy. So, the challenge is how do you combine being successful, dynamic, productive in your work, and completely calm mentally inside? That's what everybody wants. So, like you said, the most popular demand I have for speaking engagement is success without stress. You know, everybody wants that. So, let's talk about that today.

Yeah, sure. So there's the desire for success, and it almost seems like that desire itself could cause stress. There's the whole journey of trying to achieve your goals and doing the things that you believe will bring you the success. Maybe the thought is, once I'm successful, I'll be happy and I won't be stressed. But then it's almost once you get to a level of success, now you've got more responsibility, you've got things going on, and it just leads to more stress. So it seems a little bit like a paradox.

So the reason for that is the lack of control over the mind. Now this is very important. We have to analyze carefully what's happening. So you have a desire. A desire per se doesn't cause stress. The desire for success could be the desire for anything, but when that desire goes out of control, that is when it becomes stressful. Simple example, you have a desire, desire to earn money. What's wrong with that? Everybody needs to earn money. But if that desire goes out of control, what happens? It becomes greed. And greed is what stresses you out. You see what I'm saying?

Yeah.

You have a desire to have a drink. Nothing wrong with that. But if you lose control over that desire, you become an addict. You become an alcoholic. And that's the problem. That causes stress. That destroys your life. So the whole challenge is, how do you control the mind? And what Vedanta talks about is a human being has this incredible equipment called the intellect. and the intellect is able to control the mind. The mind consists of emotions and feelings and desires and likes and dislikes. And the intellect consists of your capacity to think and reason. And that alone can control your emotions. Then you're fine.

Yeah. So it sounds like it's healthy to have a drive and to have goals, but the trick is to not let them control your thoughts and lead to emotions that are negative.

Correct. And simple example, very simple. You're driving, and the phone is on the seat next to you, and it rings. It gives you a notification, there's a message. So your mind feels like looking at it, right? It's just a desire. I'd like to look at my phone. But the intellect has to come in and say, look, if you look at the phone, you're driving, it could be fatal. So, it's as simple as that. The mind has no direction or dimension. It's just constantly generating thoughts. So, if you don't have an intellect strong enough to control it, you're in trouble. And what is happening all over the world, all over the world, the entire reason for all the problems is the uncontrolled mind.

Hmm.

So, at the individual level, you're finding stress. What we are talking about today, you're finding depression, you're finding divorces, all kinds of diseases, lifestyle diseases, right? And then on a world level, what are we seeing? We're seeing terrorism, we're seeing war, we're seeing corruption, we're seeing greed, which is all these things are destroying human beings. And what's the underlying reason? Nobody knows. Is the lack of an intellect. The mind is out of control because the intellect is undeveloped.

In terms of getting your mind under control or mastering it, or at least getting to a place where it's not leading you down the wrong way, what are some things you often talk about or maybe some strategies that young people who are starting and scaling companies can incorporate?

Whether you're young or old, the problem is nobody has taught you this, right? When I'm saying you, I'm talking about the world. Nobody's taught anything. So we need to start with a fundamental reassessment of how we look at the world. That's lesson one. So we start life with this belief, and it's not our fault because everybody's doing it, that happiness or stress, sorrow or pleasure is in the external world.

Right.

What we don't understand is it's not in the world, it's in how your mind relates to the world. See, what I mean is very interesting. One guy takes a cigarette and he smokes, right? Another person detests that cigarette, he can't stand the sight of it. Why? So if the cigarette had pleasure inherent in it, everybody should get it. No, it's one man's poison is another man's pleasure. People also, you see, one person is desperate to get a divorce from his wife. Another man is waiting equally desperately to marry that same woman. How do you explain that?

Right.

So this, this guy will say this woman is the cause of my sorrow. And the other fellow will say she's the cause of my happiness. It's not that.

It's the same woman.

Yeah, it's the same person. So how can that same person cause pleasure to one, pain to the other? Because their minds are reacting differently. So it's your mind that produces pleasure or pain. So if you have your mind under control, your life will be smooth. And for that, you have to build your intellect. Yeah.

And what, what are ways people can do that? How do you go about building the intellect and getting your mind where you need it to be?

Yeah. So, before we come to building the intellect, I'd just like to talk about understanding what the mind is doing. See, unless you understand the problem completely, you won't really be interested in the solution, right? So, I told you, point one is that it's not the world, it's your mind. And when we talked about the mind, again, it's not— nothing wrong with desires, and drive for success, but it's about having them under control, right? When you have them under control, you're peaceful. You're still working, but you're not uncontrolled. It's— the stress is not out of control. So number one, that's what we need to understand. It's the mind, not the world. 2, the mind has to be under control. 3 is The mind's nature is to not be able to be on one fixed point. So the mind constantly wanders into worries of the past and anxieties for the future. You must understand the problem. And that is what is spoiling so much. When you're talking of young entrepreneurs and people starting businesses, everybody. See, you're in the CEO group that we speak to all the time, right? the world's largest CEO group, and you're, you're part of that group. And I've asked them so many times, including probably when I came to talk to your group, hey, you guys are in the office 10 hours a day. How much are you actually working? Your mind is actually on the present job at every moment. So what would you say? I mean, the answer, 30%, 40%, which means 60% of your productivity is lost. So what should take you 4 hours to do now takes you 10 hours because you have no concentration, no focus, because the mind is going into worries of the past, anxieties for the future. So mind causes stress when it's uncontrolled. It goes into worries of the past, anxieties for the future, right? And that destroys your productivity. And what else does it do? This is what saps your energy. That is why all the corporate world, everybody feels tired. You're tired at the end of the day. Why? Why do you need a drink at the end of the day? On Friday, if I ask anybody, how are you doing? The answer I always get is, I'm hanging in there.

Right.

What do you mean I'm hanging in there, man? Why? Is there one more day of this? I'm going to die. So, you know, very interesting, John. So my guru who started this whole thing, I think you've met him, right?

Yeah, yeah, I met Swamiji.

Swamiji, Swami Parthasarathy. So he started this whole modern concept of how Vedanta can be used in the whole world, right? For day-to-day living. And many, many years ago, I'm putting the— he's 97 now. So let's say 50 years ago. When they started this World Economic Forum and that kind of meetings was just about to start, right? So the guy who started that whole thing came to him, came to my guru in Mumbai. He was visiting from Europe and said, "Hey Swami, you know a lot of these people have been telling me, all the businessmen here, that I should have you at the first meeting. Can you give me one reason why I should have you? You know how these guys are direct." Right. Well, what do you got to offer, man? Swamiji said, what do you look forward to, Friday evenings or Monday mornings? So he said, Swamiji, what a question. Of course, Friday evenings. Do you look forward to the day before the vacation or the day after the vacation? Of course, the day before. So what I teach is how to look forward to Monday mornings like you now look forward to Friday evenings. Why should there be a difference? Why should there be a difference between how you look at the day before the vacation or the day after the vacation? So your work should be your vacation. So if you can make your work a source of pleasure, where's the problem? But the reason that doesn't happen is because the mind is wandering. That stresses you out. You're worried about what happened in the past. You're anxious about what's going to happen in the future, so you're stressed, and that stress is what saps your energy.

And it kind of ruins the now for you, right?

Because you're ruins the now completely. Not not just that; that's what saps your energy, so you can't keep going. That's why you need a vacation. That's why you need a weekend. You can take a vacation, but you should not need a vacation. See, there are two different things.

Yeah, no, that's a good point. And You know, I think, dude, there's a lot of research that shows entrepreneurship is similar to drug addiction or any type of addiction in that, you know, there's just this constant overwork and you feel like you need to do it, or maybe you keep at it even though you know it's not the best thing for you. But it does have a lot of qualities similar to an addiction.

Anything, any— like I said, there's nothing wrong with earning money, but if you lose control, it becomes greed. That's an addiction. That's an addiction at the material level. What we normally call addiction is at the physical level, right? For drugs or alcohol. But the principle is the same. The mind is out of control. Intellect cannot control it. It could be out of control at the emotional level too. You can't control your attachment to even your family. You're going to be in trouble. That's why divorces happen.

Yeah.

It's not because they don't love each other, but it's too much. They don't give space to each other because of— it's a sort of addiction. So everything has to be looked at in this light.

Yeah. I've heard both you and Swami Karthasarathy talk about the difference between what seems like nectar in the beginning ends up being poison at the end, and what seems like poison ends up being nectar. Could you talk a little bit about that? I think that's pretty interesting.

That is an amazing, amazing concept. And if anyone understood this, it should be taught when the children are young.

Perfect.

You know, so that principle is, it's from an ancient textbook of Vedanta. It says, what is poison in the beginning becomes nectar, beautiful in the end. And what is nectar in the beginning becomes poison in the end. So no wise person would go for the initial nectar if it's going to be long-term poison. Right?

Right.

So that's the whole problem. See, you take exercise. So being lazy is nectar in the beginning, but it destroys your health long term, right? Yeah. And exercise is poison in the beginning. You don't want to do it. But once you get into it, your whole life you're healthy. Junk food is a great example. It's great in the beginning, but if you keep eating it, again, if you don't have control, it's going to destroy you. destroy your health long-term. So, this is what the whole world is. You just crave for the instant gratification.

Right.

And, you don't see what life is all about and you suffer.

Yeah. And, it seems like there's a need for a little bit of balance, right? Because when you're in business, sometimes you just don't feel like doing something, but you know you need to do it, right? Maybe you need to get a proposal together, or have a difficult conversation with an employee. So that could seem like poison, but it is actually something that is going to be beneficial to you after a while. Likewise, there could be people who just view their work as the most important part of themselves, and they feel like that is the nectar, right? But overwork turns into poison and ruinous. Yeah. So I think the key is balance.

Exactly. So when people say balance, When you talk these terms, it sounds good. You need balance. The question is how to do it. You know, nobody knows that. So the reason that's happening is the mind is craving for one thing, and your intellect is not strong enough to control it. Like Shakespeare says, "If to do were as easy as knowing what to do," he says chapels would have been churches and poor men's. cottages would have been princess palaces, right? If we could do what we all knew was good to do, where's the problem? An alcoholic understands alcohol is not good for him, but he can't control that desire. Similarly, entrepreneurship. You understand that overworking and not having that balance is harmful for you, but that desire to succeed is so strong.

Yeah.

You destroy other aspects of your life. And you suffer.

Or maybe it might even be the fear of not succeeding or the fear of failing, right? So you've got that from both ends, which complicates it.

Exactly. But what is the root cause again? It's just emotion. Fear is a desire. Fear comes when you are afraid you won't achieve your desire. So fear is only a modification of desire. So once you have that intellect, you're able to control the mind. Okay? And that's what you should be talking about in schools and colleges. And how you build your intellect is by questioning, is by analyzing. You have— it's like exercise, right? The intellect is the questioning part of you. So you must exercise it. So what I recommend is for all entrepreneurs, in fact, John, you've done a lot of research. You would know that this is common knowledge now, that they did an analysis of traits of CEOs and successful businessmen, and they found one of the common traits is they all wake up early in the morning. Are you aware of that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can do all the research, but these are fundamental principles. In Vedanta, 4,000 years ago, they said that is the best time of the day.

Yeah, 4 AM roughly.

4 AM to 6 AM.

Yeah.

And of course, 4 AM is very early for most people. So, I would say as close to 5 as possible is more practical because you're still getting that 1 hour.

Yeah. And what is it about that time of day?

You know, very interesting. You analyze— now that you're asking me and we have some time, it's good. You know, your audience should know this. Let's say you analyze even an alcoholic, right? A person who's really fond of drinking and has no control. You offer him a drink early in the morning, what will he say? First thing in the morning? No, we'll start in the evening, right?

Mm-hmm.

You offer a guy who's a gambler, let's start gambling now as soon as he wakes up at 6 AM. He'll say, no, we'll start in the evening. So this is a very interesting thing. Early in the morning is the time when your desires and emotions for the world are little bit under control, so you have more capacity to think clearly. So you must use that time. And by the evening, you will see that you don't have that capacity to think. That's why you want to chill out, you want to laze, you want to watch TV, you want to go and have a drink, you want to go out with your friends. So it's a natural tendency that the purest thinking part of you is available to you early in the morning.

Hmm.

So that's the common trait that they've found among successful people. In fact, I was talking to a CEO just a couple of weeks ago, and he told me without me even explaining this that, you know, I get up early in the morning. That's one thing I've never compromised on. And I find what I can do in 1 hour in the morning, it takes me 5 hours in the night, you know. So, again, poison in the beginning, nectar in the end. It's poison to wake up early in the morning. All of you will say that. We're used to— we're night owls. We're used to doing night work. But just try this. Try getting up early in the morning and see what a change it makes to your life.

Yeah, no, I agree. I actually prefer early mornings to late nights. I find that by 9 PM, my brain is done. Kind of useless, but I like early mornings. Yeah. Like you said, you feel a little bit more clear. Maybe you're harnessing the energy that you were able to gain over a good night's rest or something. So yeah, there, I think there's a lot to that. As a matter of fact, I know your guru wrote most of his work between 4 and 6 in the morning. Is that right? Am I remembering correctly?

Yeah. No, none of his, none of his books have been written after 6 AM. So, 4:00 to 6:00 is this time of thinking. And then, 6:00 a.m. onwards to 6:00 p.m., we all want to work, right? It's the time for work. We all want to get out and start moving. And, 6:00 p.m. onwards is that time. You just want to chill out. You want to have a drink. You want to relax. So, this is the cycle of every human being. So, you've got to use that early morning time to your advantage.

Yeah. So, that kind of— it leads me to 2 things. One would be this idea of calmness in turbulent times, but also mindfulness as the essence of success, both of which I know you talk a lot about. So, which one do you think would be more relevant right now to discuss?

When we talk both these topics you're asking, the fundamental principle is you control your mind, you control your world, right? So, this concept of self-management, is what your listeners should take away from today. So, all the time you're trying to manage things and beings around you, but you don't know how to manage yourself. If you can't manage yourself as a human being, how can you manage anything around you?

What are some ways that people can start to learn that mastery and manage themselves?

Okay. So, first thing is, like I said, get up early in the morning. And number two, when you get up early in the morning, what are you going to do? The recommended thing is to read something that will grow your intellect, right? So my guru has written this book, Governing Business and Relationships.

Yeah, I've read it.

You've read it? Yeah. Yeah, read it again because again, reading it is one thing but acting on it is another. So it's not just reading it, but it's more about thinking, what is he saying, right? So I'm giving you the time of the day and I'm telling you what to read— Governing Business and Relationships. It's on Amazon, anybody can get it, and that will help you build your intellect. It contains some very interesting topics on productivity, on leadership, on the right values, and both those things will help you build your intellect. The second thing you need to do, you're asking me what else can you do, is you need to assess the nature of things and beings around you and develop reasonable expectations. So all these guys are stressed, not entrepreneurs, everybody, because we have wrong expectations which we don't even realize. I lecture here in New York and everybody is complaining now it's going to get cold. It's going to be cold. It's going to be cold. Now, what do you expect New York to be in the winter?

Warm.

So, New York will be cold, right? And then you go to LA and everybody, oh, traffic is so much. What do you expect in LA? So, you're not able to assess simple things like traffic and weather. So, you want New York to be warm in the winter. You want LA not to have traffic and you're stressed out. So simple thing is apply your intellect and assess not just things like weather and traffic, but things like the nature of your spouse, right? Your spouse likes golf, you like tennis. What's the problem? You, you must understand they like golf, they're not going to like tennis.

Definitely.

So each individual has a distinct nature. And when you assess that nature, you understand they'll act according to their nature. So why you fight? Why? What are the fights about? When you when you fight with your spouse, you want them to behave according to your nature. So if you remember this line from this lecture, you'll be happy. People change when they want to change, right? Not when you want them to change.

And you have no control over somebody else changing.

You have no control. That's what I'm saying. You got it's like no, you have no control over the weather. You can go into a heated room, but you have no control over how cold it is outside, right?

Right.

So why do you stress out about things which you have no control over? Assess again. Use your intellect and assess. So a person says, "I have a nagging wife." Just a simple example. Or a wife says, "I have a." husband with a temper. So I asked them, do you want a divorce? They say no. I said, then you must assess. My husband has an uncontrolled temper. That's it. So when he gets angry, what do you say? I'm in the right house. I'm in the right house. Because if he didn't get angry, you should be worried that you're in somebody else's house. So where's the problem?

So it's— yeah, so it sounds like managing expectations or, you know, assessing And understanding what is and appreciating what is, right? It's not warm in New York in the winter. And that's what it is, right?

Exactly.

It is traffic in LA. That's what it is. Likewise, if you're starting a business, yeah, maybe, maybe difficult to attract good team members for now. That's what it is.

That's what it is. Yeah. So make do with what you have to the best of your ability.

Right.

And not stress out about things you can't control.

Yeah. And I like the advice of getting up early and then while you're still fresh, doing something to advance your intellect or advance your knowledge, which I appreciate is difficult now because I know, and I'm guilty of it sometimes too, but I try not to, the first thing you look at is your phone, right? Because now you've got to see what's going on and what you missed overnight, right? So I think maybe that period of time where you don't look at your phone, which when I avoid that, I tend to be much calmer, much happier. I think that's a good practice.

See, again, it's an addiction. I told you, your mind craves to look at the phone. Your intellect has to say no at that time. So, the best thing to do would be to make sure your phone's in a different room, at least for that 1 hour in the morning. Even your iPad is switched off from your internet connection or whatever you're doing. Otherwise, you're not going to achieve anything in this world.

If you have no control, like you said, to be able to assess, like, you know, is anything that's going on on my phone right now something I need to deal with right now? Chances are it's not, right? So, you can make a lot more progress with your intellect if you devote that time to some sort of study or reading or doing something that you won't have the time or energy to do later on when the distractions really kick in.

So, early morning getting up, I've given you the literature. Which is the governing business and relationships to advance the intellect. And 3, but not least, any entrepreneur, any businessman, I tell them, you need to fix a higher purpose in life. See, the whole problem— now this is the crux, you know, the people who are listening, who will listen to this podcast till this point, because most people will drop off, right? But Those who are listening towards the end, which is now, they are interested. And to them, I will say this: if you want to be happy, if you want to be stress-free, the only way is if your goal in life is to serve others and not just selfish. So you're starting a business. Now, I'm nothing against making money, but your goal should be how can this business How can this organization be of service to the maximum number of people? So what happens is a very interesting thing happens. The more selfish you are, the more the mind is stressed. This is the law of life. It is selfishness which causes stress. So if the goal of your organization, your mission, your purpose is something beyond your selfish interest, immediately the mind becomes calm. And this is the secret which nobody knows. No business school teaches you that. In fact, they teach you how to be more selfish, how to gain more for yourself. Here we teach how you can be of service to others, and with that, your mind becomes stress-free.

Great advice. That's a really appropriate place to stop. So if people are interested in learning more about you and what you do, where can they find you?

So I teach, in fact, these principles every Saturday morning, the book on Vedanta. And this is open to anybody who wants to attend. And if they can't attend, they can look up the recordings on YouTube, you know. So the website they can go to is called vedantausa.org. So like I said, this is our mission. This is— we are a nonprofit. We want to serve others. So vedantausa.org, V-E-D-A-N-T-A-U-S-A dot org, and they can sign up for our lectures, books, whatever they want.

Amazing. Well, Gautam, thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom. Really appreciate it.

My pleasure. My pleasure.

Thank you so much for listening to the Total Entrepreneur Mind Body Spirit podcast. If you liked what you heard or heard something interesting today. Please give us a like, share a comment, or better yet, subscribe to the podcast. Thank you.