Unlocking Conscious Leadership With The Journeymen Collective

with The Journeymen Collective

Mar 28, 2025 · 00:40:18

Today's guests are Gary Logan and Robert Grover, founders of the Journeyman Collective. For more than 40 years, Gary has developed a deep awareness of the mind-body-spirit connection within human beings. His journey of self-exploration began when he embarked on his career as an actor. Gary explored many ways into stillness of mind and body through fitness, meditation, music, and dance, with the primary focus of studying the Alexander Technique with his first teacher in London, England. Throughout his life, Gary was continually learning that a deeper awareness of the psychophysical connection would help him liberate the destructive subconscious programs from his childhood. Everything in Gary's life, from teaching the Alexander Technique to healing touch, culminated into a quantum leap once he embarked on his first shamanic journey to assist him through a time of grief and mild depression. The numerous personal and spiritual paths that he has explored were all woven together into a deep and broad tapestry of true soulful expression in collaboration with Robert. to form the Journeyman Collective. Robert Grover experienced a profound awakening which opened him to knowledge of deeper realms of existence. For the first 2 years, he was left with a typical Western approach that left many questions unanswered and deeply unfulfilled. Robert's awareness was grounded into understanding reality when he discovered his first spiritual teacher. It changed the entire course of his life, leading him out of a successful corporate career that he pursued since his youth onto an ever-evolving path of self-mastery. By following his deep inner guidance, Robert was led to his own shamanic journey, where he remembered that his higher purpose is to help others connect into their intuitive guidance systems and universal truths through the shamanic path. Welcome to The Total Entrepreneur: Mind, Body, Spirit, where we turn cutting-edge science into practical strategies for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Dr. John Torrance. Entrepreneur Inc. 5000 honoree and professor of entrepreneurial practice at Syracuse University's Whitman School of Management. Each episode, we dive into mental, physical, and spiritual health with expert guests offering actionable insights to help you thrive and perform at your highest level. Let's get started. Gary and Rob, welcome. It's really great to have you, and I'm looking forward to this conversation. I find it especially interesting. So, welcome.

Thank you, Jon. We look forward to it.

So, first thing is, tell me a little bit how you got to this, right? This is not your normal business venture. It's relatively new. So, yeah, I'd love to hear how you got to this place with Journeyman Collective.

Definitely. So, it wasn't like one day we just decided to—

We didn't?

Well, the thing is, what I mean by that is that It's us stepping into this new role was built upon many, many years prior to us stepping into being whatever label you want to give it, being medicine men, being guides, being psychedelic guides. And it's been built on about 40-plus years of Gary's mind-body conscious awareness training. And myself, about 25 years of mind-body conscious awareness training. And I'm gonna skip a lot of that background and just jump right into— essentially, we had a lot of tools in our tool belt and a lot of different ways for us to work on self. And the universe provided an opportunity for Gary and myself to live with his mom for 3 and a half years. And that's not what caused us to go into a psychedelic journey, but— Some people may say. When after 3 and a half years, she passed away. And it was the first time that I had lived with someone. And then all of a sudden, they're no longer there. Like I had friends and family, but someone in the actual house where you're at, and all of a sudden is like a light switch went off and they're gone. And it was a very sudden passing and it really left both of us with the question of like, what are we really doing with our lives? Life happens quickly, passes by quickly. And this woman came into our life and said, I just went on a journey and I think you and Gary could both really, really benefit from a journey. And I immediately scoffed at the idea because she mentioned mushrooms. And I was like, I've done mushrooms before. Like, what are you talking about here? And then it just kept coming up and kept coming up. And I was like, okay, the signs are there. And I was in meditation one day, and I saw this quintessential image of like 5 mushrooms. And I said, I think I'm going on a journey. And spoke with one person. It didn't feel right. It was literally gonna be like a 5-hour session, like I, what, what we call the in and out model, the In-N-Out Burger model, the fast food model.

Yeah.

And then I spoke with this other individual who she had worked with and it just resonated. And I went and spent 2 full days with the medicine man. It shifted the grief, the depression. And then I would also say that I found my pocket, the pocket of my soul, the pocket of like my lane of what I'm supposed to be really truly doing and working with people. So— When Rob came home, the shift was like monumental. I was like, wow, I'm going, mushrooms can do this. So I spoke to the medicine man myself and said, maybe I should go on a journey shift the grief and the anxiety and a bit of depression that I was going through. And so I booked in on my birthday, and I always say it was the best birthday gift one could ever give oneself. Yeah, shifted the grief and the depression, the anxiety. I had more clarity and vision. I came back in alignment. As my— the medicine men say, you're like a pillar of strength now. Go forth. And so there were visions in my journey too that I had a conversation with Rob that I think this is the path we're supposed to lead. I'm not too sure what it looks like. So we did speak with the medicine man and said, you know, these are the visions that were coming up. What do you think? And he says, I'll be able to teach you and so you can guide the way that you're supposed to guide. And so we embarked on that journey with, with our medicine man. For about 6 months and, uh, discovered a pathway that led us to where we are now with the Journeyman Collective, 6 and a half years later.

Yeah. So it sounds like you were trying to, you know, heal obviously some, some trauma or some depression and things like that. How does one find a medicine man? Like, you know, I'm guessing you don't just look them up in the Yellow Pages or something like that. Actually, there are no more Yellow Pages, I'm sure. But so how do you find a medicine man?

Yeah, smoke signals. Yeah, I think it's the good old adage of like, when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And, and that's what we trusted. And yeah, it's usually through your network. And like, now people can Google and there's Instagram and TikTok and like, it's happening all over the planet. You see medicine men and medicine women really starting to help our culture move out of this stagnation, this forgetting that we've been sort of stuck in for a while.

So yes, they're relatively— I don't want to say easy, but you can find them now, right? So, so how does, how does your offering differ from, from things that might be out there? Because it is, it's a little bit unique.

Hmm. Yeah. So part of what we were shown in an actual journey was that we were to work with executives, entrepreneurs, founders, movers, shakers, high achievers, people who are potentially at the, the top of their game. Life is good to great. However, they sense that they haven't fully connected into something. They're looking for deeper connection. They're looking for greater clarity in their purpose of what they're here to truly do and be for people.

Mm-hmm.

And it's It's a purpose-driven journey that you're not just coming in to experience the medicine. There's a purpose for your stepping into and on this path. And the Journeyman Collective is a culmination of all the different pieces of myself, of Gary, of our team members. And it's a coalescence of all the different pieces. Even my corporate background steps into this, my scientific background. Gary's mind-body conscious awareness training and metaphysical training gets blended into all of this. So it's, it's got a firm foundation in science. It's got a firm foundation in the spirituality metaphysical world as well. And it's meant to help leaders lead in a different way and go back into their organizations and lead in a way whereby They're not just using their intellect, they're actually using their heart intelligence, they're using their intuition. So it's their intuition, their intelligence, and their intellect. And a lot of people will have an unconscious heart intelligence, and then when they work with us, it sort of becomes more conscious and they start to see how it's already been there. And so it's sort of waking that up further. And for the most part, it comes down to people having the courage and the bravery to ask those deeper personal questions of the people that they work with. That it's when you recognize it, it's not a top-down structure. It's a— there's a central pillar in the middle and there's an emanation outwards. So there are leaders in the middle, but then there's a lot of people that surround you sort of in concentric circles that are there to to really help the mission of a company, the mission of someone's soul. And a big part of what we were shown as well is that what is one of the biggest drivers of human activity on the entire planet? Business. People get up in the morning to go to do this thing called work.

Mm-hmm.

And if we can have people that are incrementally or exponentially more conscious of who they are, what they're here to— who they're here to be and what they're here to bring, then that increases prosperity on all fronts. And people are starting to recognize that the greatest inheritance that they can leave for their children, their families, their businesses is a higher level of consciousness, a higher level of prosperity, a higher level of harmony within those relationships. So people are starting to recognize that dysfunction in relationships creates dysfunction in business. And when we actually take a good hard look at self, that's when you can start to shift your whole entire reality.

It's so important. And it's, it seems like this is becoming more, we're becoming more aware of it, right? I mean, there is, there is a real intuitive intelligence and heart intelligence. And, you know, I've looked at research that shows, for example, serial entrepreneurs are more likely than non-serial entrepreneurs to use their intuition. Right. And I think we've got so much pressure to just re— you know, to do data, data, you know, data-driven decision-making. But, but heart intuition is, is also a, a form of data that, that we should be paying attention to. So I think that's really important. So Gary, I'm, I'm interested in hearing a little bit more about the, the connection between, you know, the, the mushrooms and plant medicine and its effect on consciousness, or not, maybe not its effect, but its interaction with consciousness. Because it seems to me, or Things I've heard or read say that, you know, you don't necessarily want to have substances in your body if you want to connect with higher realms or consciousness. But from what I'm hearing is that that maybe isn't true, and this could actually be a facilitator or a way to help you access that. Yeah, it's—

it could be the key to unlock that door for you. It's not a fast track, but it is one of those Equipments or tools we can use to assist us on our path. Sometimes in our, even our spiritual path, we get to a ceiling that we can't get any further, you know, and then the medicine will show itself and saying, perhaps this is probably the pathway forward. It's not all about spirituality. It comes down to when you're using it with a mushroom, working with a mushroom, it does release a lot of habitual patterns. That you get to look at and you think, well, maybe I don't need to do it this way anymore. There might be a new way of doing it. And it sort of helps do a bit of cleaning of house. So we'll say the mushroom is a bit of a house cleaning mechanism that helps you to make decisions and choices to move forward. So the vessel, the human vessel, is sort of like stronger and cleaner as you move forward in decision making. Are you going to forget those things in the past? No, but the connection to those things in the past won't be as strong after a journey.

So, so the people that come to you, so you're focusing on entrepreneurs, founders, movers and shakers, people that can exponentially affect the world through their own organizations, right? So is there a standard profile of the type of person that comes to you, or how, how would you describe your, your typical client if there is such a thing?

Good question. It varies greatly. We've had, we've had 21-year-old entrepreneurs and founders come and work with us. We've had 70-plus-year-old retired entrepreneurs who are still like, hey, I've still got like some gas left in the tank and let's see what that can actually look like. I would say it's just slightly, I'd say it's about 60% women, 40% men. And I think women are maybe a little bit ahead of the curve with respect to like honoring their intuition. And I think that if we went deeper with that, it taps into the fact that women have the ability to bring this thing called life into form through them. So I think through that process, they become more intuitive as well. And so they're just more open to it. And I think they're a little bit more open to looking at self. However, we're seeing an increase in, in our work with men who are just showing up, who are like, there's something going on. There's something going on with me. There's something taking place with my family. And that tends to be the starting point. And then they see the ripple effects out into their, into their work.

Mm-hmm.

And they're able to have those more vulnerable conversations with people and not skirt around something. So they'll sense something after a journey that they would lock into and actually probe and ask some questions about with their people. Whereas before they might be like, no, I'm just not gonna go there. I'm gonna ignore that. So it's sort of like an upgrade with respect to your, your subtle senses.

Now, have, have your clients experienced mushrooms just on a recreational basis? before? Are they often very new to this, or is it a mix?

It varies. A lot of people that come to us have had no alcohol, no other substances, and some that are on pharmaceuticals are on alcohol and have explored substances. I'd say it's about 50/50. Yeah, yeah.

Most people have experienced psychedelics in a recreational way, in university, or I'd say, as Gary said, like 50/50, 50% And in terms of the outcomes, like, what are some of the, some of the cool things you've seen from your clients? You know, you, you know, you still, you don't have to divulge names or anything, but yeah, what are, what are some of the cool things, or maybe a few stories that you've got?

I think a commonality is when, especially with men, CEOs, executives sit up and they in the space and they say I don't know what this feeling is, but I think it's contentment and peace.

They don't know what that is, and they're feeling it perhaps the first time.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's the— and then everything, when you have that peaceful heart, that peaceful mind, that's where so much greater— like, you have a greater capacity to actualize the potentials that are in your field. And like your energetic field. And so as a function of that, you process them, you work with them, and you create them. And like a big part of our work is that you're taking that transcendental experience of an actual ceremony, a journey, and then we help you ground that back into form. And not just— yes, you do write about your experience in a journal, but it's like, it's not just that. It's taking that. And continually touching back into the transcendental experience and the transformative experience and bringing what took place on the inside out into the world, out into your relationships, out into your businesses. And we see it like over and over and over again. And a lot of the time, the people that our clients surround themselves with who may or may not know that they've come on a journey, They'll say something's different about you. What have you done? What's, what's been going on? You seem lighter. You seem just a little bit more easeful, not as stressed. You're not reacting like you used to. You're responding. You're more thoughtful. Then they slowly reveal that they've been on a journey with the Journeyman Collective.

Well, yeah. And, and if, if people are noticing that in them, you could imagine, just like you said, the ripple effect through the organizations and You know, the relationships they have, their ability to tap into their creativity and ideation, opportunity recognition. So yeah, for, for an entrepreneur or somebody who lives in an innovative environment like that, this could be especially powerful.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other part too is that like when we work with people, it's the spiritual, mental, emotional, and the physical. Those are like the 4 bodies, the main 4 bodies we work with. And people start to become more aware of the physical holding that they might have and tension that they might have, which then that tension restricts the actual flow. And so we give them many different tools that they can carry with them for the rest of their life, such that they can continue to do that inner work on a daily basis and and maintain that discipline so that they can move with the creative process. Um, yeah.

What's an example of, of a tool that you give them to make sure this is integrated going forward?

Ooh, the Alexander Technique. Exactly. I've been a teacher of the Alexander Technique for probably over 30 years. Well, with the With the technique itself. Biggest thing is to learn how to stop, come into heart, then respond or react. It's learning how to interrupt the habitual pattern of responding and reacting out of normal and going, hmm, perhaps there's another route to that answer or another route to get there. And so you learn, especially working with us, that you're going to eventually stop, breathe, think with the heart, and love with the mind.

So it's just a different level of awareness or just the ability to observe, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So for people who are listening and thinking, all right, this sounds kind of cool, but there's no way I'm going to do this. Like, you know, so the potentially— or the potential client who's very reticent. What do you— is there advice you give them, or do you talk them through this, or is that not—

One of our sort of gates that people have to pass through to actually come on a journey is we look at, are you ready, willing, and able? And we always say that ready is just a decision, and you can change— you can make that decision in the moment. I'm ready now. I'm ready now. And I'm ready now. And it's literally just a decision. And then the willingness is like, are you willing to look at yourself? And are you willing to allow us to guide you through that process so that you take the time to look within yourself? And if someone is actually reticent to looking at self, it's like, the worst thing that can happen is you're gonna cry. The worst thing that can happen is that you're gonna feel some of the pain that you haven't processed because our culture hasn't actually taught us how to do that. We have these superficial graduations every 5 to 6 years, but we don't actually have those, those soulful initiations whereby you're taking the time to clear out your baggage. And then you get to 50, 60, 70 years old, and you're riddled with pain. And the pain is stuck mental and emotional patterns. So it was like, why, why wouldn't you allow yourself to have that freedom and better, like, optimize your health on a lot of levels? Yeah, I think ready and willing are the 2 biggest things that people bump into. And there are people who have a conversation with us and it's very confronting for them just in that conversation, and then they may It might, might only be one conversation that they have with us, but it's brought up things with them. And, and then those who stay in it, they know the power of decision, and they stay in the decision that when you decide to grow, your old patterns are going to start to surface. And like, we spoke with a gentleman last week. And he was like, I've had 2 conversations with you. I haven't even started the journey yet, and my life has already drastically changed.

Wow.

So if you want to change, if you want to grow, step into it. If you want to stay where you're at and like remain in, in the old patterns, then do that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's a choice. Yeah, but I think, I think the Modus operandi of being human is that we're here to grow. We're here to create and grow and learn more how to, how to be a compassionate, creative, like, functioning member of society and the world around us. It doesn't take long to look outside and see that the world needs change right now.

Yes.

And there's so much division. And how do we shift that? We shift that within each and every individual. So if we actually unite within, then we have unity outside of it as well.

Yeah, it seems like it's, you know, it's coming at just the right time, right? Because I agree, it seems like we need this and it's been taboo or even illegal up until now, right? So actually, you know, that's one thing I'd love to hear your perspective on. You know why? I mean, it's just a plant. grows naturally. What's the big deal, right? Why, why is this something that humans are prohibited, or have been in many places prohibited, from ingesting?

Yeah, it would awaken too many people all at once, and those that are in power want to keep control. Perhaps, you know, there is a controlling mechanism there. They found out that the psychedelic mushroom many years ago Was a heart opener, and people were actually standing for their their human rights. And then they decided that no, we can't have that. I'm just assuming this is the story that you you know there's many stories out there. But what we just decide that you know forget about that. Forget about what they told you. It is a mushroom that grows in the forest. If the universe and the world didn't want us to have it, it wouldn't be here. And it's been in ceremony for hundreds and thousands of years. years. So it's time to join the mushroom band. I think that the biggest thing too is that it actually, it makes people ask questions. It makes people question like, really? Okay, so there are 8 billion ants on the speck of dust floating through space. What are we all doing here? And there's this thing called war. There's this thing called disease. And what if there's actually a better way? What if— exactly.

Exactly.

So what if there's a different way? What if there's a greater way? What if there are potentials within every single human being that we've all forgotten that we can heal ourselves? That we can eat amazing food and create like business in a purposeful way. Like, there's just so much, so many questions that can pop up. And there are systems in place that have worked. And I think the shadow side of those, or the dysfunctional side of those systems are starting to really rear their head. So people are looking to create new models and create new pathways, create new ways for, for our cultures to engage and to be connected and to do this thing called life on this speck of dust with those other 8 billion ants known as humans. And we can actually do things differently. It doesn't have to be the way it was.

Yeah, I feel like it's, it's moving in that direction. Like, even the, the young people that I work with at the university, there's, there's a growing number of them that I've observed who, who just look at their future prospects and think, so I'm just gonna sleepwalk out of college into a 9-to-5 job for what?

Really?

For what? They, they, you can, you can actually see it In their person, like they, they don't understand it. It's, it's kind of confusing to them. They know they've learned that's what they're supposed to do, but it's not sitting well with, with a growing number of them from what I can see.

Yeah, I was, I was one of them who bought very well into that idea of you must go to university. I went twice to get 2 different degrees. I believed in it so much. And then halfway through my second degree, I was like, It was like all of a sudden my head popped out of the clouds and I was like, what am I doing all this for? And I'm doing it so that I can go and work for the next 40 years of my life and then retire and then do the things that I want to do.

Yeah.

Yeah. You're born, you go to school, which is in a box. So there's a certain age group and then you go into a larger box, which more people are in. And then you go into another box, which is called college, university. And then you graduate from that to go work in a 9-to-5 box for 30 to 40 years. And then there's, there is eventually another box you're going to go into at the end of your life. So it's like, you just need to get out of the fricking box and look outside yourself and don't conf— it's not, we're not a rebel people. It's like, it's like there is so much more to the 9-to-5er. So, you know, and some people love it. That's great. We have friends who say, I don't want to change. We aren't perfect. Be who you are. You're happy. You know, we're not here to force you to change. We're just here to show you a different pathway, you know, and for you to discover a different pathway. Yeah. Well, it's also like we've had people come in and like at executive levels and be like, I don't know if I should be in this career anymore. And then they come through the process and it's like, oh, it was actually like Childhood, teenage trauma, small t, little t, whatever you want to call it, that was actually blocking them from loving what they were doing. Then they go back and they're like, I actually love the career that I'm in.

Yeah. So it may, it may not cause you to do something radically different. It could very well just cause you to really love what you are doing or where you are.

Yeah.

That's beautiful. So, so Journeyman Collective, it seems like just from the materials I've researched online, it's positioned as more of a high-end, maybe sort of luxury retreat.

Right?

So walk us through the process of like, what, you know, when somebody contacts you the first time and they made the decision, they're ready, willing, and able. What is this? What does the whole process with you guys look like?

So basically everyone applies, everyone schedules a call with us. Typically we're going to have about 2 to 3 calls with you, sometimes more. And we're going to go deep. We're going to look at like, where are you at in Relationship to self, relationship to others, and in your life's work or your career. And then we're going to look at where do you want to go. And through that process, we're sort of attuning to, okay, is this person really ready, willing, and able to step into this work? And then we would put forth an offering for you to step into, and then you get to make that decision. You get to make those agreements and commitments that we put forward for you. And we're with you for 4 months. There's a, a 1 month of preparation. There is video content for you to be with that helps prepare and create context around the experience you're gonna come into. Then you're gonna come and work with us for 4 full days, and it's 4 full days. We work with you from the time you land to the time you go to bed every single day. And for 4 full days, there's 2 ceremonies, 2 full days of integration. And we are working with you nonstop in that time. It's not a vacation, it's not a retreat. There's nothing to retreat from. And it's, we often talk about it's, it's let, lean, learn. You, you let go of what you're meant to let go of. You lean into the challenges that show up and you learn from it and you get to carry that learning with you for the rest of your life. And we teach you how to continue to tap into that intel that you're given because we believe that every, every person's experience is, there's intelligence in it. Oh, well actually it's intel and then it becomes intelligence by you processing it and contemplating and working with it and wanting to understand it. And then we're with you for 3 months of integration implementation support. So that you're not just sitting there writing your fancy journal, you're actually, you're moving it into your life. You're doing things with that which you've received. And so we're with you for 3 months of integration and implementation support. And then afterwards, you become a part of the community and we teach people how to honor and revere this experience for the rest of their life. So it might be, you might only come on one journey. And some people, we see a large percentage of people coming every 3 to 4 years. We see a smaller percentage coming maybe once every 12 to 16 months. And then there's another portion of our clientele who are like, I think I've received enough in this one experience to work with for the rest of my life.

Amazing. Yeah. So a couple questions. What, what, what is, what's involved in the preparation before they get there? What types of things do people have to do to prepare for a journey?

We always ask, do you meditate? It's probably the number one question in the sort of first or second call. And then we find out what their form of meditation is. We believe meditation, it can be on the mat and in silence. Or sitting in a chair. If you're a runner, cyclist, bike, anything that you do, activity that brings your mind awareness to self in the activity that you're doing, that is a form of meditation. Playing music is a form of meditation. So it doesn't always have to be on the mat. So meditation would be the number one. There would be awareness on the words that you use that come out of your face.

Okay.

And is looking at your dialogue. Like if you listen to yourself sometimes, it's like, would I actually say that to myself, or did I just respond immediately out of habit? So we look at that process also. And then I think there's also like, what are you speaking into? Is it when your language is coming out of your, out of your face, is it one of limitation or is it one of infinite? So it's like, what cup are you pouring yourself into? And we get in that prep, we also like dig into like, what is it that you really want? What is it that you truly, truly want? Have you, have you just been bombarded by all these other ideas of what life is supposed to be and you've just accepted it? Or are you actually looking at yourself and being like, maybe I don't want to do this thing called life with another person, or maybe I do want to actually be in a relationship, maybe I don't want to be single for my whole entire life. That's a big thing that happens too. People actually like form, if they're single, relationships tend to quicken into form as well. And sometimes that happens before the journey. And then we also look at like, what do you really truly want your life to look like? What do you, you want your relationships to look like? And we get people to write it down, put it into form, like you can write it out. and work with it every single day in a meditation as well. And again, it's really being frank with yourself of like, wow, this is a really old pattern that like it needs to go. So it's becoming aware of your habits, of your thoughts, feelings, and actions. And it's like, is this something I want to change? Is this something I want to let go? Because A lot of the habits we have have come from our parents who have come from the grandparents, if you like, great-grandparents.

Further back.

Further, and just goes back. And we just, we, we think it's normal. When you have someone who can just like really honestly create that space for you to be like, wow, it's really dysfunctional that I operate in this way and there's a way to optimize it. So that's what a lot of the prep is. And then The videos that we've created too, it's, it creates context around this experience of what you may, like, experience in the journey so that you can work with it. And we talk about the science, we talk about the spirituality, we talk about the quantum.

Mm-hmm.

And so that, again, it's like the slipstream and the preparation is like, It's creating data points of potential around the individual, and then those data points are supporting the person in the preparation, during the immersive experience, and after, so that, hey, this is what I'm pouring this experience into. I'm not just coming to have a trip, because that's not what it is with us. If you're just looking for an experience, then we're not your people. It's You're pouring this into some sort of purpose-driven reality.

So, so there's a lot of, um, well, they're becoming very popular, right? The, the ayahuasca retreats, even toad medicine, things like that. So what's the, I guess, what's different about psilocybin from ayahuasca, toad medicine, that sort of thing?

Hmm. Uh, I gather working with the mushroom, it is like a 4 to 5 hour journey with experience, sometimes longer. Uh, other medicines are very quick and they're done and over with. We believe with the medicine, it's a teacher and it's a tool that you're coming in to learn something about yourself. And, uh, we haven't worked with ayahuasca, so we're not too sure. You know, they have probably very similar results from the stories that we hear. We believe that this is the medicine that we're here to honor and work with. I can't really speak too much about the toad other than other people's experience. With iboga and other medicines. So each one is a teacher in itself. Mm-hmm. And you just have to listen to what is the calling that your body requires to go through this process to move forward in life.

Yeah. So, I mean, what, what I like about this, this movement or, you know, the, the fact that this exists out in the open now is that it really is a way to, to connect mind, body, and spirit. It just seems so important to me and, you know, especially for the people I work with who are young people who are starting new ventures. Growing new ventures, exiting their companies. It just seems like could be such a such an advantageous thing to do as as a human.

Yeah, we highly recommend it.

Well, well yeah, which is a perfect segue. So if people are interested in learning more about you and your work and what you do, how can they find you?

Yeah, we have a great website: www.thejourneymencollective.com. Also on Instagram, same handle. Facebook, LinkedIn. LinkedIn.

Great. Well, Gary and Rob, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your wisdom and experience on this, and hopefully it makes an impact to people listening.

We hope so too. Thanks, John, for this time.

Thank you so much for listening to the Total Entrepreneur Mind Body Spirit Podcast. If you liked what you heard or heard something interesting today, please give us a like, share a comment, or better yet. Subscribe to the podcast. Thank you.