Understanding Entrepreneurial Wellbeing with Johan Wiklund

with Johan Wiklund

Jan 3, 2025 · 00:28:32

Welcome to The Total Entrepreneur Mind, Body, Spirit, where we turn cutting-edge science into practical strategies for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Dr. John Torrance, entrepreneur, Inc. 5000 honoree, and professor of entrepreneurial practice at Syracuse University's Whitman School of Management. Each episode, we dive into mental, physical, and spiritual health with expert guests offering actionable insights to help you thrive and perform at your highest level. Let's get started. Today's guest is Johan Wiklund, who is the Alberg Chair and Professor of Entrepreneurship at Syracuse University's Whitman School of Management and an overseas visiting professor. His research interests include neurodiversity and mental well-being in entrepreneurship, as well as the entry, performance, and exit of entrepreneurial firms. He is considered a leading authority in entrepreneurship research with over 100 articles appearing in leading entrepreneurship and management journals and over 50,000 citations. to his research. He is editor-in-chief for Entrepreneurship Theory and Practice, a premier entrepreneurship journal. A prolific advisor of PhD students, he received the Academy of Management Entrepreneurship Division Mentor Award in 2011. Johan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Well, thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Of course. So I wanted to talk a little bit about the article you published in Journal of Business Venturing on Entrepreneurial Wellness, Past, Present, and Future. And then maybe at first, just define entrepreneurial wellbeing for us.

Yeah, I think we, you can look at it in many different ways, but I think it's best to keep it simple, isn't it? So entrepreneurial wellbeing are essentially the emotions you associate with entrepreneurship, essentially how it makes you feel and the kind of value it provides to you. Just like you think about wellbeing in any other context of life. But here it's specifically in the context of being an entrepreneur and acting in entrepreneurial activities.

Yeah. So things like satisfaction, positive affect, or even the absence or low negative affect, right?

Exactly. Yeah.

And we look at it across the stages, right? So developing, starting, running a business. And there's 2 types of well-being. There's hedonic and eudaimonic, right? Can you break those down a little bit for us and tell us the difference?

Sure. So hedonic wellbeing, that's very much associated with those scales. I'm sure you've heard of these scales where they, for example, compare the wellbeing of countries. And essentially these are just about overall life satisfaction. Are you feeling happy or are you feeling unhappy? So that's the hedonic part, which is largely about seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. The eudaimonic approach is much wider. So there they talk about human flourishing. What does it mean to have a full life, to lead a full life? So there they add all these dimensions, such as having purpose in life, having meaningful, positive relationships with other people, self-acceptance and so forth. So this eudaimonic approach comes much more from philosophy. And philosophy of a good life. Yeah.

So when you have this sense of eudaimonic wellbeing, it almost seems like it also derives from doing difficult things, right? Or having bounced back from adversity, right?

Yeah. I mean, one of the things people talk about is personal growth, which is very much about learning and developing as a human being. And as you know, we don't develop as human beings if we only do the things that are easy. if we only do the same things over and over again. So it's— that is largely about challenging yourself to experience new things and learn new things. And as an entrepreneur, that's typically what you do, right? You need to engage with new types of customers. You need to maybe develop new products and whatnot. So you can see that there's a close connection there between entrepreneurship and eudaimonic well-being.

Yeah, like this stress, uncertainty, burnout that often comes with entrepreneurship, right? So I think it's important for entrepreneurs to realize that it's not just about the hedonic, types of wellbeing. It does derive from, yeah, from getting through difficult things and thriving in that way too.

Absolutely. I'm personally, I'm more interested in this eudaimonic approach because I think it gives a richer view of what it means to be an entrepreneur and what it means to thrive as an entrepreneur, I would say. And something I thought a lot about, you know, I'm upper middle age myself, is that when I look around me and I see my friends engaging in entrepreneurship, you know, people who might have had successful careers and, you know, want to get out of the rat race. It's clear to me that a lot of people seek out entrepreneurship specifically because they want to increase their well-being in their professional lives. I have friends who completely changed their careers when they moved from being an employee. You know, you might work in finance or whatever, making a good salary. We do know, and what I've seen is that it's larger because they want to get more out of life, have a better life, and increase their wellbeing that they actually make those decisions and change their careers in this way. So it has, it has a big impact also on, on the fact why people choose to engage in entrepreneurship.

Do you think there's a lack of consideration or appreciation for the, the difficulty or downside? Because it seems like a lot of people may get into it with a lot of optimism and not completely appreciate Yeah, I mean, that's a good question because I think it's really important to realize that all entrepreneurs have a strong relationship to their businesses, right?

We know that passion is important and passion contributes to people actually engaging in entrepreneurship. But I mean, when you are really, really engaged in something emotionally, you can, you can hear a relationship, you know, you're really in love with a person and the person breaks up with you. It's really devastating. It's a little bit the same in entrepreneurship. You know, you enter into entrepreneurship largely because you have this passion for whatever it is. Then if things don't turn out the way you were hoping, there's a high risk for negative emotions. I don't think we talk about it as much as we should. As you know, in entrepreneurship, there's no way to know before you throw yourself into it how it's actually going to end up because there's always uncertainty. So even if on paper your business looks like a a done deal is gonna be successful. That's not always how it's gonna turn out. And then we have that big emotional connection that can have a pretty big downside if it doesn't go the way you want.

Yeah. And you talk a little bit about having wellbeing be both a, a goal and a resource for entrepreneurs.

Exactly.

Yeah. What, so talk about that a little bit, 'cause I think that's really an interesting idea.

So when I said this thing about why people engaged in entrepreneurship, like I said, people my age who might have a successful career, That's where you can see it very clearly being a goal for even considering entrepreneurship in the first place. But also, if you think about this eudaimonic approach, the fact that you're really feeling good and you're having all these positive things associated with what you're doing, that just gives you the energy and the drive to continue even if things are not looking great each and every day. Take the example of feeling purpose in your entrepreneurship. I mean, if you feel that you have a strong purpose that you really you know, making a difference in the world, then it's gonna be a lot easier for you to get up in the morning and actually put in a hard day's work than if it doesn't really mean that much. So that's how it can be a valuable resource and help you be energized in your entrepreneurship.

Yeah. And then jumping off of that, so entrepreneurs with, I guess, high emotional resilience, we know they tend to perform better under pressure, but then this long-term emotional wear and tear can also lead to negative health outcomes too. And I know you've looked into that a little bit.

Yeah, absolutely. We know that there are lots of studies on entrepreneurs and burnout, for example. And generally speaking, the risk of burnout is higher for entrepreneurs than employees. I mean, there's one study that was published in Harvard Business Review where they found that about 1 in 4 entrepreneurs show signs of moderate to large burnout. Part of the reason for that is that it's hard if you're an entrepreneur, to set the boundaries, right? So it could be that, let's assume things are not going as smooth and easy as you were hoping for. So you then might start putting in 10-hour days and then 12-hour days and then 14-hour days and continue, continue just trying to work harder and completely go overboard, which can lead to burnout. So therefore, I think it's really important for entrepreneurs to think about these things and How they can avoid getting into a situation of high stress and burnout. It's really, really important to have some structure to your work.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, it's like making sure that you set limits to yourself, how many days per week you're going to work, how many hours per day you're going to work, etc. Develop routines to delegate things that you know that you're not that great at doing yourself. You can delegate that to people that can do it better. And then self-care, you know, looking after yourself, exercise, sleep, eating, those kinds of things. And then also family support is extremely important.

Yeah. So actually a couple of interesting things there that I just picked out. So back to the idea of wellbeing being a goal and a resource. So I think it's important for entrepreneurs to hear that before you take the leap, you should have a pretty good foundation on your own wellbeing, right? The idea that you're going to discover best practices or find wellbeing through the journey of entrepreneurship may be overly optimistic, perhaps.

That's probably an illusion. Yeah. The thing is that if you think about, you know, job description for any kind of job, of course they have taken into account what a human being is able to do within a limited amount of time at work. The thing is that as an entrepreneur, you don't have that, right? So it's like, If you don't know what your boundaries are, if you don't know what your limits are, then it's really, really hard. You know, when you're really, really passionate about something, it's like you don't really feel how tired you are because you're really, really into this thing. And that's another risk. So I absolutely agree. It's a good thing to be aware of these things before and then kind of develop these routines, develop the structures, delegate the tasks you don't want to, or you're not good at doing yourself. And then you set yourself up much better for being successful.

Yeah. Obviously we know entrepreneurs are perceived to be risk takers. In fact, they're probably more likely risk mitigators, but there's also something to their perception of the risk too, right? Maybe they just perceive risk a little bit differently.

I mean, I think so. And I think that once you have, it's a little bit like skydiving. I mean, the first time you go up and you try skydiving, I mean, you're gonna feel like it's absolutely horrible. You're gonna be so scared. And then when you've done it 50 times, it's more or less routine. It's a little bit like as an entrepreneur, you know, there is always uncertainty. There's always a certain amount of risk, but it can kind of become second nature for you to handle that risk. So you don't really perceive it like maybe people outside would perceive it, you know, because you're kind of, you're used to engaging in it.

Well, let's talk a little bit about future research directions in this area. So what types of things are you looking at? What are you finding especially interesting right now?

Okay.

Yeah.

So I think that the wellbeing of employees in entrepreneurial firms is really interesting and not least, you know, during scale-up. So we've done a couple of papers now where we're looking at really, really high-quality data from Europe and where we can see that scale-up has negative effects for employees, not all employees, but in particular female employees. And it's largely because they feel they don't have the resources to actually deal with a large workload. Because as I've been talking about earlier in this interview, we know that entrepreneurs work long hours, but if you are an employee in a scaling firm, it's the same thing for you, right? You put in a lot of hours and I mean, that's engaging and that's challenging and that has a lot of positive sides, but we have found that not all employees benefit in terms of wellbeing during scaling. So I think that's really interesting. There's so much positive vibe around scaling, but I think it's important to realize that it might not be equally positive for everybody.

I've experienced that in my own companies where the organizational pressure that the employees feel is immense when you're growing quickly. Yeah.

And also, you know that because when you're growing quickly, you need to recruit new people. You need to retain those that you have, right? So it's important for you as an entrepreneur that your employees feel well, because otherwise they're gonna leave and otherwise, you know, they're gonna post negative reviews on Glassdoor. It might be hard for you to recruit the kind of talent you need. Of course, as an entrepreneur, you care about your employees, but it's also something that unless you're able to offer them wellbeing, it can harm your ability to scale going forward. It's important for a lot of reasons.

Yeah. And, and I could see it from the other side too. Like when you're in that hypergrowth mode and scaling, you need to lean on people who you know and trust and, and already know what they're doing, right? So those the people you tend to go to, and you may be just so busy that you don't have time to even post a new position, or you may be so resource constrained that you can't even afford one. So you have to get more outta the people you have already. So yeah, that is pretty interesting, especially the effect with women employees.

Yeah, no, I think it's interesting that we found those clear differences. It seems that, and I mean, the reason is, I think it's pretty obvious given that women tend to take more responsibility for things in the home and so forth. it can be harder for them to devote that much time and energy to work. So I think it's just having more obligations outside of work than men have. That's at least what we believe is the main reason for this.

You also research neurodiversity as it relates to entrepreneurship. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about that because I know, I mean, you know, the students I work with, the ones you probably work with, we're seeing a lot of this. So I think it's pretty interesting.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting too. I mean, It's very clear from all the research we've done that neurodivergent individuals are attracted to entrepreneurship. And I think the most simple reason for this is that you can design work in your own business to fit your own specific strengths and weaknesses. And I've done most of my work on ADHD specifically. And if we look at people with ADHD, they often have disturbed sleep patterns and a very straightforward thing people tell me is that, you know, when you run your own business, you can actually get up 4 in the morning and start working for 3 hours. And then by 10 o'clock, you can take a 1-hour nap. And most employers would find it very tricky to accommodate. So that's just one reason. What I think is really cool is that there's a natural fit in terms of, you know, if people with different, you know, diagnoses tend to be impatient, they tend to prefer action over deliberation. you know, have high activation level and so forth, you know, engage in lateral thinking. And that's really things that fits very nicely with entrepreneurship because it's all about doing and it's about doing things differently. Most of the research we have to date, not only what I've done, but if you look at the field in general, relates to ADHD. And that is because ADHD has a specific fit with entrepreneurship and has a specific attraction to people who have ADHD. And it seems that what serves them particularly well is hyperactivity because you can work long hours, you can work hard. You can also hyperfocus, meaning that you can kind of, if you find something you're really interested in, you can really hyperfocus on that and kind of cut away everything else. And the next thing is this thing about impulsivity that just makes you prefer action over deliberation. And, you know, in entrepreneurship it's all about action and, you know, you need to do stuff consistently and constantly. So yeah, we find that people who are neurodivergent fit well in entrepreneurship and it's really cool because I think it's something that neurodivergent people discover intuitively. You know, when they look, I mean, they, there are other professions that could suit them as well, but I mean, when you look at what am I gonna do with my career, it just seems that they are more likely to be attracted to entrepreneurship. And then we can see they're also more likely to start businesses, more likely to become entrepreneurs.

Yeah, it seems like they're attracted to it only maybe because, yeah, like you said, they're not going to fit, right? They're not going to join that credentials arms race to go to the best school, get the best internship, get the best grades and all that kind of thing, right?

It's a little bit like being the underdog, you know? Yeah. And I think, I mean, you know the saying, A students, please be nice to the C students because they're going to be your former employers. There's something to that. what you're talking about. So, so I said a few things about wellbeing before, and I think it's, it's interesting to think about the link between ADHD and, and wellbeing. So I mentioned that, you know, self-care is really important for anybody who's an entrepreneur. And we do know that this is even more important for people with ADHD, you know, to really make sure you have, you know, your sleep and diet and exercise and drugs and alcohol and all those other things dialed in within the reasonable boundaries. We also know that specifically mindfulness meditation is very helpful for people with ADHD, and that certainly applies to people that become entrepreneurs. All these things I mentioned before about well-being, they're even more important if you're neurodivergent.

Yeah, no, I could see that. And I mean, I think all those things are important for everybody, right? Just for overall well-being. But I think it's even more important, or it becomes more important when you're engaged in entrepreneurship and you have neurodiverse qualities. But it's not all ADHD though, right? It seems like it's more of the hyperactive impulsive versus the inattentive. Can you talk about that a little?

That's exactly right. That's what we find in the research. It is the hyperactive impulsive type and those traits that are positively linked to entrepreneurship. Inattention doesn't seem to be linked to entrepreneurship at all.

Is there a negative correlation with inattentive type or is it, is it just—

Well, if anything, it's negative, but it seems to be pretty much close to zero. Yeah. I also think it's important to think about entrepreneurship as a process. You know, you kind of start your business and then you got to manage it. And it seems like these qualities I'm talking about that are positive with people who have ADHD, they're more positive in the very early stages of launching the venture. Then when, you know, it's more of a going concern, a lot of people with ADHD get bored. And when they get bored, they have a really hard time putting in the hours. So a lot of people with ADHD, they either start a new business or else they engage in developing new products within the business they've already started. So they kind of avoid that routine of having to manage people and manage a going concern. And instead doing like new and exciting stuff.

Yeah. And it almost seems like the skills that you need in a going concern or in the later stages of the life cycle are things that don't lend themselves well to, you know, lack of premeditation or, you know, hyperactivity, right? It's coherent allocation of resources and thinking comes through and deliberation and that sort of thing.

Absolutely. And that's what I mean. It's important we think about that. It is a process and it's the earliest stages that we can see that. these people with ADHD really shine.

Yeah.

If you look in the general media, there's quite a lot of talk and a lot of examples of successful entrepreneurs with dyslexia. And it's interesting, there the connection is slightly different. And a lot of people talk about the fact that they're lateral thinkers. And we do know that people, they are neurodivergent by definition, Their brains are differently wired. So it seems like, you know, this ability to think in different patterns is important for these entrepreneurs with dyslexia and largely what can make them successful, but also that they often have good social skills. That often comes from the fact that, I mean, the typical symptom of being dyslexic is that you have a hard time reading. And if you realize that already in first, second, third grade, you might, you know, have to reach out to your peers in order to be able to do your homework or so forth. So already in an early age, people with dyslexia tend to learn to reach out and seek help from other people. And that is, of course, really, really helpful when you're an entrepreneur, that you have a sense of what are the things that I'm good at doing and what are the things that I should outsource to others. In particular, you know, if you're scaling a business, so you're not just working by yourself, but you're actually hiring people, that you have that sense of your own strengths and weaknesses and kind of get people to help out where you have those weaknesses. So I think that's also quite cool connection there between dyslexia and entrepreneurship. Yeah.

So it seems like the compensatory strategies that you need to develop as a younger learner really lend themselves well to entrepreneurship as a pathway. So that's really cool.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's it. And it's the same thing with resilience and those other things we briefly touched upon. How important it is to be emotionally resilient if you're an entrepreneur. And of course, if you have, let's say, ADHD or dyslexia and you're gonna survive just K through 12, you do develop resiliency. There are 2 options essentially. Either you drop out or you develop resiliency. And having that resiliency, you know, developed at an early age, that also helps you once you're into entrepreneurship.

But it's not all rosy for entrepreneurs with neurodivergence, right? So, I mean, there is a downside to it, of course, as well.

Of course.

Yeah.

If you look at, I mean, it's easy to talk about ADHD because the statistics are so extensive. If we look at just having an ADHD diagnosis, what are the implications in life? Essentially, if you look at almost any aspect of professional lives, private lives, on average, people with ADHD do worse. But that's why I think it's so important to talk about these contexts where that might not be the case. It is important to say that, you know, if you have ADHD, you can actually find occupations, things to do where you can excel. We know, for example, sports is another area where people with ADHD seem to be able to excel, and I think it's largely linked to this hyperactivity. I mean, if you're used to moving around way more than your peers already from the age of 2 or 3, It could be a lot easier for you to develop ability to be an athlete. But anyway, so I think it's important that we can show that there are areas in life where people with ADHD can really do well. I think that in terms of being an entrepreneur with ADHD, I think it's like you have a vulnerability. You have a vulnerability to, for example, stress. You have a vulnerability to being attracted to drugs and things like that. And it's important to be aware of this. And it's also because of this that self-care is so, so important for the newer diverse entrepreneurs.

Yeah, totally agree with that. And you mentioned athletes, and I've seen my own students who are entrepreneurs and athletes, you know, because I ask them once in a while about this. And the student athletes who are also entrepreneurs, they talk about this short memory, what they call it. So, you know, you flub a play, You can't beat yourself up or get upset about it. You have to focus on the next play. And I think that's a lot like the resilience that's required in the startup environment.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And it's also this ability, if there's something you really like and you have ADHD, for example, you tend to immerse yourself so much into it. So you're completely one with the activity that you're conducting. I think Michael Phelps, I think, is the best example of that, who I know he swam every day for I think 3 full years, you know, and then he won whatever, 30 Olympic gold medals around that area. So I think that's a good example of how you can harness your ADHD and really immerse yourself in an activity that you find meaningful.

Yeah. Did you have any favorite resources for entrepreneurs with ADHD or things that they should look at, or are there organizations or systems or even countries that handle this really well?

I actually think we're doing pretty well in the US. I mean, not least because we speak more openly about this than most other countries. And I also think most people that have a diagnosis like this, they get access to appropriate care. But when it comes to resources, there are all these resources available for people with ADHD just on, you know, support organizations in general. And although they're not specifically designed for people who are entrepreneurs, I think they will be very valuable also to entrepreneurs with ADHD. And I mean, you can pretty much just Google those. A lot of entrepreneurs I speak to benefit from having an ADHD coach. It's kind of like a reminder almost, you know, it's just to keep them on track and not fall into any of the traps that we've spoken about.

So do you have any final thoughts or suggestions, recommendations? Actions that you would suggest entrepreneurs with ADHD or just entrepreneurs interested in their own wellbeing should pursue or take?

Yeah, I think a few things. One is that you have your passion for something. That's probably what drives you into entrepreneurship. And I think it's really important that you think about what is it that you're passionate about? What are the things about entrepreneurship that attract you? And then that you try to carve out a role for yourself in the business where you can maximize that. Even if you start a business by yourself, not in a team, but by yourself, you don't have to be the CEO. You don't have to be leading and managing people. If the thing that drove you into entrepreneurship is that you just love developing new products, I think you should try to stick with that and do that as much as possible. And then you can maybe hire an external CEO who can more manage the people. I think that's really, really important. And the other thing is, which I've said a couple of times, look after yourself because nobody else is setting boundaries for you. You have to do that yourself. So, you know, take care of yourself, engage in the positive self-care behaviors that we've spoken about that are well known, and try and stay away from the negative ones as much as you can.

Great advice for everybody. So if people are interested in finding out more about you, what you do, where can they find you?

Because I care about my wellbeing, I'm off all social media.

Good for you.

I'm not even on LinkedIn. Usually, if you just Google Johan and ADHD, you'll read about my research. So you can just Google my first name and ADHD, or you can just Google my name and you will find about it. And the other place you'll find me is I work at the Whitman School at Syracuse University, and you can go there and then you can read more about me. And I do really appreciate when entrepreneurs reach out to me. It's really, really rewarding to have conversations and to, you know, talk to people and just exchange experiences and see what people might be able to do a little bit better than they're currently doing. So feel free to reach out to me.

Johan, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Really appreciate it.

Well, thanks very much, John. It's been a pleasure.

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