Leading with Consciousness: Decision-Making in Times of Change with Marc-Antoine Tschopp

with Marc-Antoine Tschopp

Oct 17, 2025 · 00:41:17

Today's guest is a pioneer in conscious leadership. Marc-Antoine Choppe is the author of Elevating CEO Consciousness and a global strategist who helps executives lead at the intersection of heart, mind, body, and purpose. In this conversation, Marc shares how leaders can move beyond performance metrics to embody presence, access inner wisdom, and align business strategy with deeper human values. We explore the art and science of conscious leadership, somatic intelligence, and the mindset shifts needed to build businesses that Welcome to The Total Entrepreneur: Mind, Body, Spirit, where we turn cutting-edge science into practical strategies for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Dr. John Torrance, entrepreneur, Inc. 5000 honoree, and professor of entrepreneurial practice at Syracuse University's Whitman School of Management. Each episode, we dive into mental, physical, and spiritual health with expert guests offering actionable insights to help you thrive and perform at your highest level. Let's get started. Marc Antoine, welcome to the podcast. It's really, really great to have you here. Thank you, my friend.

Thank you, Jun. Very happy to be with you.

So my first question is about CEOs and consciousness. I mean, one of my interests is infusing consciousness into business education. So tell us a little bit about your work with consciousness and CEOs and why it's important.

So maybe the why is it important is I think as CEOs, we have to take decisions and We take decisions constantly. But how do I know that my decision is the right one? And probably that's where consciousness comes. So we need to define consciousness and probably go a little bit further, how to know what is the good decision when we talk about good or bad. But mostly it's more, what is the decision that is aligned to my purpose, my value system? And when I say my purpose, my value system, of course it's the company's one in that sense. So if I define consciousness quickly, just as an example, there are many definitions, but the one that I like is the knowing of an experience. It's not me who says so. I think it's Deepak Chopra. And for me, it means what? It means if I am fully open and present, and all my 5 senses are fully awake, if I can say so, then I can perceive the environment that I'm in fully. And so I can smell, see, feel, hear, whatever, and taste. And the more of it I have of those informations, then my decision process is nourished. Same with data. So I can have Excel data, so many data that fill my brain. Now, the point is, how do I know what is the good or the needed data versus the unneeded data? Okay, luckily we have AI coming, and AI seems to do it for us. But is AI in that sense analyzing full of data aligned to what we are trying to do? And for that, we need as CEOs to be very clear on Why we do things, the purpose. So first of all, there are a few steps. So coming back to the decision, the more info I have, but also the capacity to know which info is the right one. And in there, there is another aspect that makes us take good decisions often. It's called intuition. Wisdom. Where do we get that? Where is it? Where do I source it? So those questions were questions that always interested me. And of course, on the journey, I found answers, and I'm happy to share those answers.

Yeah. So there's a, there's a component of stopping to observe what's going on, kind of like you mentioned, before taking a decision. Dive into that a little more deeply for me. So when you encourage somebody to stop and observe, a lot of times it's just, you know, hey, I'm looking around with my eyes, but it seems like it's probably deeper than that.

So first of all, and again, to come back to, okay, how do I know the good decision? I need to be in a mindset that is a mindset of, I call it abundance. Some will call it growth mindset. Okay. So When I am in that mindset, it's often when I am relaxed. We use often the word present. I am present in what I'm doing. Okay. So to do so, that comes framework that I wrote in in the book that is in your over your head, Elevating CEO Consciousness. And that framework is starts with pose. I started saying stop, observe. Then I realized stop, it's like blocking something. Pause is more interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Pause means I can have a 1-minute pause, which is just stopping what I'm doing and start to breathe. I can have a 1-night pause, you know, we sleep over it, a decision, and then in the morning we have some aha that helps us to take the decision.

Mm-hmm.

So the first step of that framework is, yes, pausing. And there are many ways. And the more I practice pause, like meditating, or like whatever exercise that brings my consciousness, my presence focused, like all the martial arts, Then I am ready to very quickly pose. And once I'm posing, then it's like I am ready to perceive what is around me and what is in me. And where then comes the question: Where do I source my knowledge? Where do I go and source my my data? And I will take a decision. But if my decision is sourced out of my fears. And that's what we do most of the time. Then I don't take decisions that will serve life, that will serve the purpose, that will serve the value system. I will take a decision that serves my fears, often my emotional wounds or my limiting beliefs and all those things. So those decisions are based out of what I call the survival. mindset. Not very interesting, not creative, not innovative at all. We just repeat what we know when we're in that state. So yes, and that's what we see. We have certain behaviors today where the idea is to conquer, to take what the other has, not to innovate, not to create, just to take. And with that mindset, it's not very interesting. So I hope I'm not losing you. So starting to understand that there are those 2 mindsets, and depending on which mindset I am, I will source my decision, my data, either in my fears or into something of higher wisdom, higher consciousness. And that's what we talk about consciousness. Then if I can find my answers in my vision, in my purpose, in my value system, and maybe in something we don't know exactly, exactly, but the things that we say, yes, I know it was right, but I don't know where it comes from. That's the intuition. That intuition comes often from my own journey, comes from the consciousness that we are very limited and that we depend so much on, let's say, the universe. Some will call it God, some will call it the source, some will call it whatever the name you want to it. to do it. But if I can connect to things that are happening beyond me, then I can take a decision that is aligned to what's happening currently in the present time in me. And in the time that we are now, which is a time of turmoil, of what we call viewcast, vulnerability, you know all that, but I just rephrase it because, okay, vulnerable, Unpleasant, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. And then we add 3 acronyms: EST, which is extreme, speedy, and turbulent. This is new. And it's going so quickly that— and we currently have beautiful examples with, let's say, our president in the States who takes decisions from one day to the other that are completely different and that will impact the business, that will impact A lot of things. So we need to be very agile how we navigate in those times. To be agile, we need to be in that growth mindset, in that abundant mindset. So the framework helping me to pause, observe, and decide, that framework, if I practice it, I enter quickly into the abundance mindset and get out of the fear of the survival mindset. Then comes the question is, but what do I decide? Am I still with you or am I losing you? Because I feel that this is very important.

I'm not interjecting because I want you to just keep going.

Yeah.

I'm making a few notes here and there, but no, this is right on.

So the moment, okay, I am present and I, okay, now take the power, I need to take the decision, comes the question, okay, but how do I know it's the right decision? And that's where the framework that I found very helpful start with, first, love yourself. When I say love yourself, it's a word that is often not understood because it's called to be affectionate. But love yourself connects to the heart, to the place that has a very interesting wisdom, a very interesting knowledge, that it's away from the brain that we normally use, but the brain is quite limited, okay, in that sense. So let me be clear. When I say love myself, it means, first of all, be very clear who we are. So who am I as an individual? It's an important question to raise, because the moment I have a clear answer about that, I am aware of who I am really, but also who am I as a company? Who am I as a business unit? Whatever group you want to define, be very clear of who we are. Then secondly is where do I come from? We have a story, we have ancestors, we have a lot of things that we take and continue to have. And we need to be aware of the privilege or the skill sets or the knowledge that we have that might be different than others. Secondly, thirdly, we need to know where we go. That's the vision. Normally we have a vision, it's clear. But if we go further as an individual or as a company, as an individual, it's very clear that we will die.

Mm-hmm.

If we go on the journey to the end. Now, as a company, how do I make sure that we don't die and that we continue? So a lot of questions come here to answer. Where do we go? Not only the wisdom, but also there might be an end, and how do I prevent this? So then come other questions. Once I am clear about who am I, where I go, and where do I come from, Then come questions like, why am I doing this? Why am I in this company? Why am I in this family? Why am I in this community? Whatever group you are, you need to find the why. The moment you have the why, you have the purpose. You have the meaning of what you do. That touches your heart. That's where the heart comes into play. And lastly, we need to also find answers to 3 other questions, which is, how do I want to live? And the how is the value system. What values are important for me? Virtues, behaviors, we need to define them very precisely for me as an individual, for me and my family, for me and my company. So again, purpose and value system are well-known. currently in the business world. But it's not just to put a word saying, okay, we need to be honest, we need to be integral, we need to be— all those words, beautiful words that are placed on a board or on a wall in a boardroom.

Right.

Nobody connects to it. So it's much more interesting that behind those words, we define behaviors, behaviors that we want to see in our— and behaviors that we don't want to see. In us, so not many, but some behaviors. Once we have that, then we can be very concrete in how to take a decision in line with purpose values. And the two other last question is: What blocks me to be the most efficient, the best person, the most efficient as a company, with the best person as an individual? And that those are limiting beliefs. So what are the belief systems that we have in our company or in my family or in myself that limit me to be fully capable? And lastly, what are my emotional wounds? Stories, experiences that I had or that ancestors had that I continue to carry and that blocks me to be fully free. And I need to heal those wounds. And often those wounds are our superpower. Once we identify the wounds and heal them, they become our superpower. They become what makes us unique, what makes us continue to fight whatever the situation is. And I don't like the word fight, rather to say we continue to serve whatever the situation around us is. So to summarize very quickly, because we will continue to talk about that, I just talk about those 2 mindsets that we are facing. When the time is turbulent, when it's becoming very hectic, the tendency is to be in the survival mindset. And there we behave in a certain way. We will talk about that. But if we want to take proper decisions, decisions that serve life and really out of consciousness, we need to be in the abundance mindset.

Mm-hmm.

And to move from survival to abundance, there is this framework Pause, observe, decide to love yourself, and then come to respect the relationship. We will talk about it. And lastly, expect nothing in return, which is the most challenging in the business world, but the most interesting one. Okay, a lot of words, huh?

Yeah, I know, a lot of, um, a lot of thoughts too. So, so much— there's so much power in the pause, right? Even if we, even if we just did that, a lot of things would probably start to fall into place. But I think a lot of the things you talk about seem to be counter to what we learn about business, right? I mean, it's zero-sum and you win at somebody else's loss or something like that, right? And I think we're starting to feel differently now when we're realizing that cooperation yields better results than competition in some cases. But I guess the thing I was like, CEOs have to perform, right? They've got to perform well. They've got KPIs. They've got metrics. They've got pressures. Startup founders need to perform. They need to return value to investors. So, I guess the difference between performing and leading consciously is still something people need to grasp onto.

So, I believe there is one— there are many things, but one element that is putting so much difficulties in that journey is called time.

Hmm.

Because we set a deadline, because we have timeframes, quarters, yearly results, KPIs, whatever you put on, where you place something in the future and you expect something, that creates tension. pressure. And the moment we have that, we enter in this survival mindset. And you mentioned that we need not competition. In the survival mindset, we compete because we just see what is there. We don't see the opportunities. We don't see the potential. We just see what is now here and we fight for it. So no creation, no innovation, And no growth, just fighting. But by doing so, we are destroying the planet, we are destroying the families, we are destroying our own life, because we suffer just because of that pressure put by something that says, we decide to have these things in such time. And I need to be better than the others in the same time period. Which means over the year I need to bring such performance to the shareholder in comparison to others. But real leaders, yes, they take it and then they do the best they can. And that's a big difference, which means whatever will be the result, we'll see. But on the journey, I do the best I can and I'm fully present in what I do. So sometimes external events happen, and they will help me to ride the wave. And there are other moments where waves will come against us. Now, the question is, I need to know how to navigate those waves. I need to become very agile. So if I put something in the future and I say, that's what will be, I have the tendency then to go after the wave. waves, against the waves, and fight and show that we are stronger. That's where we are not good, where we're not efficient. In fact, it's very simple. Okay, we want to achieve something, but who says we will achieve it? We decided. Okay, it's a game. So the moment I understand and come a little bit more relaxed about that, it's a game. So let's play the game the best we can. Then I become agile, then I see the waves, and then I can adjust whatever needs to be adjusted in the moment. And that's the quality when I'm talking about capacity to take the right, proper decision that serves. It's a decision that is called in the flow. And the flow concept is quite known in the business world.

Yeah.

So if we define that concept is we are working hard, we don't feel tired, we are very conscious that whatever we do is not for our own sake, it's for bigger purpose, it serves a bigger meaning. And what is most interesting is all the information that I need, they come to me. The resources I need, they come to me. And the decision that I'm taking, they take it right away, no hesitation. That's what is called being in the flow, optimal experience. And we all want to be in that state. But as a leader, we should be in that state as much as we can. But to be in that state, we have to get out of the stress that is mentioned the moment we put time that create that pressure because of the time and space that we put somewhere, but it's completely artificial. There is no existence to it, really. It's just a game. And if we have that in our mind, then we play. I hope I'm not losing you again, huh?

No, no, it's really— this is important information. The thing I keep coming back to is that even though, yes, I get that the these are constructs that we've put upon ourselves. They're not real. It's a game. Yet it feels so real. The pressure feels so real to a CEO or an entrepreneur, right? I mean, these things, you know, about competition and lack versus abundance and those types of things and pressures and deadlines, they're hard-coded into the way we do business now. So I think I'm seeing more people tapping into this way of thinking. But it's hard when the rest of the business landscape is not built that way.

If I'm not wrong, but I need to check that because I heard when Google started, they didn't put budget. They had no KPIs and budget. They said, dream, run, go, and they created. Okay, so those were the moments of creation, and then somebody comes. It's called the CFO. So the CFO, his role is to look in the past and try to minimize the risk. That's why we are facing so much tensions between financial analysts or are investors, but investors that are looking for returns, not looking for a journey, not looking for an experience, not looking to create something and to have fun, not looking to dream about big things. Those who dream about big changes, they understand that this limit of putting a time and a space is just Again, it helps us to focus. Fine, let's focus. But if the results are not exactly there, and we trust, we believe, because here comes trust, we believe that the journey is a proper journey. Now, how do I believe it's a proper journey? How do I know it's the right journey? That's the point. You see, how do I continue to trust somebody, somebody that has an idea? You mentioned startup. But he's not performing yet. How long do I going to give him money? How long do I want to wait? How long do I going to support?

Right.

And this has to do with trust. So now, how do I trust somebody? I trust, first of all, somebody because he's like me. Okay, there are 5 levels of trust, not just 2. I'll come back to that aspect. So the first level is, you're like me, so I can trust you. You belong to my same tribe, same culture, same education, whatever, same. I can trust you. But that's very basic, okay? The second level is, I trust you because you are the alpha guy. You dare do things that I don't dare, but you dare. So I trust you. That's animal. We see this in the animal kind. kingdom, and it's constantly here. And we have beautiful examples currently of great alpha men that are guiding the world, but I'm not sure they're guiding well.

Hmm.

And to give you an example again with that is, if we talk about big leaders, we always have names. And I'm sure if I ask you, what are your leaders that you look at saying, Those are examples of how to lead something. Who do you think of?

I think of like Yogananda, Yeshua, things like that. But like, you know, modern day, I don't know, I don't really have one that I look up to, which is kind of strange, I guess.

Yes, because we create a lot of mythology with people like Yeshua, Jesus, or Yogananda, or Buddha. or Abraham, or whatever name you want, okay? Because they show us behaviors that are supposed to bring love, peace, freedom, okay? Things that we all want. But in the current world, I'm sure we have people like Mandela, Gandhi, Mother Teresa.

Yeah.

They are often expressed as an example. Or you have also people like Hitler, Mao, Stalin. And strangely, those, we say they are not good leaders, but in fact, they were very, very powerful leaders because they could bring people to kill others. I mean, I cannot do this. It's easy to say bring results, financial results. Now, tell somebody to kill another guy.

Yeah.

You must be a little bit strong. And they did. Massively. But after, once we look at the result, we say, yes, what Mandela, Gandhi, Mother Teresa did is of value, is of better kind of things. Why is it better? Because it served life. But when we look at Hitler, Mao, and so on, they destroyed life. That's the point. That's why we can say, okay, not so good. Good. So today, if you come closer to leaders, we have, let's say, political leaders, because this is currently very, very common. And what is happening in those days, we have people like Trump, Netanyahu, Putin. Are they good leaders? Are they serving the life? And Trump is a very interesting example. Some say he's destroying things, others say he will be the Nobel Prize winner. Peace Nobel Prize winner. So, but who will know? We will not know yet. We will know in the future. But of course, if I look now, and that's coming back to how do I know it's the right one, I need to come back to those values and to the purpose. And if I look at the purpose of life, in my understanding, it's to evolve, to expand. Secondly, expand through diversity, to exchange with different things, so we create and evolve. Thirdly, we want to evolve towards peace, serenity, freedom, love, which is compassion. Okay. And of course, kindness, these kind of behaviors. But is this the business world? Are you paid for that as business leaders?

Yeah, not generally speaking, no.

And that's where I challenge. I think if we think that we are paid because we bring financial results, By destroying things, by attacking competition, by gaining market share, using, let's say, in my sense, killing behaviors, okay, destroying relationships, taking advantage of this. For me, this will not last. It might last for a quarter, it might last for 5 quarters, 6 quarters, and then suddenly something comes out. And in this crazy world, then we say, oh, you did perfectly well for a few months or a few years. Now it's not going well, so please go out. And then you get a golden parachute and you leave. Yeah. And another guy comes and says, I will do the best things. And we believe this crazy story. But by doing so, and that's what is very interesting, I'm not sure we are gaining that money that we want.

Mm-hmm.

Because if you look at Warren Buffett, and I think as an example of investors, what does he say? If I understand right, he says, I analyze a business to make sure that they are really bringing value and they have pure values and intent in what they do. And I don't invest for few quarters. I invest long-term because I believe in what they do and I know they are doing this properly. And I wait. Am I right or wrong?

No, I agree. It's a mindset shift. It's a societal shift that I feel is starting. But yeah, I do agree that if we can focus on the different things, things that really matter, the things that we all want, it'll probably come together in a much better way. So let's bring this down to something tangible. So, you know, we've been speaking high level, very theoretically. What are some daily practices or things that people can do every day to get them to a place where they can pause, observe, decide, love themselves, value relationships, and, you know, do things without an expectation of anything in return? How do you What are some stops along the way, or what are some practices to get you there?

I think the first practice is the morning routine. What do you do when you start the day? Okay? And if we start by starting the day, it starts with making sure that you have a moment of silence, 5 minutes of silence. You can pray, you can meditate, you can contemplate, whatever you want. But start the journey by doing something in silence. The more you practice these qualities, the more if you enter in a meeting that is very tense because you have a board meeting or a meeting with clients, whatever, and you know that's going to be tense, just by doing some breathing exercise, you'll be present. You will be not lost in fear, and what I call survival. You very quickly come back to, I'm present. But for that, we need to practice. So practicing silence, practicing soft movements like yoga, you mentioned Yogananda, so like yoga or like exercise where we are very focused on how we breathe. Tai Chi, Qigong, walking, swimming, all those things where we are very aware of cycling, how we breathe, running. And because we learn how to breathe— breathe is our energy. And most of the time we don't know how to breathe. So learning, practicing deep breathing, abdominal breathing, that's also one thing. What else in the morning? I think if we focus on our vision, what we dream. Because the moment we come to the world, we are filled with things to do urgently. So starting the morning by saying, okay, what are the 1, 2 activities that are linked to my vision, to my purpose, to my value system? I can also put some values into that list and say, What is the value I want to live today? And starting the journey with one or two of those things, either something that is linked to my focus— sorry, I have some noise in the back— that is linked to my focus, to my purpose or vision, or my value system. When I place this in my morning, I say, okay, that takes one or two minutes. before we start to go into action. So that morning routine, everybody, every leader that I know, and what I call conscious leader, they have a morning routine, a moment with yourself where you do this kind of things.

Yeah.

Of course, the way you sleep then is very important. What you eat is always very important because we are touching the body. Okay, so sleeping, Eating, moving, and of course, breathing are so key. And there, find what you like. Find something that is easy for you, that you like, and focus your attention in the morning about this. This is taking care of yourself. This is loving yourself. It starts in the morning.

Okay.

During the day, do the best you can. Don't judge yourself. Do the best you can. Try to do. And the point is, when we make a decision, the difficulty is we don't always know if it's the right one or the wrong one, because taking the steps that I'm mentioning will take time. So we take a decision, but the moment I feel it's the wrong one. I can change it, and it's okay. First thing. Second thing is, if I am present and perceive what is happening, I will take the decision that is aligned with what's happening currently. You see? And that's the right decision. What is the worst thing is not to take the decision. And we all know that. Okay?

Mm-hmm.

And then in the evening, in the evening is journal. Take a moment.

Okay.

Journal things that were what you did well, and especially express gratitude towards yourself and towards the people that you had that show you did something or you received something. And by doing this act of gratitude, it increases our sense of worth. self-worth, it increases our happiness. And with that, we are much more confident to tackle challenges. And lastly, and this also is— all those things are well known, be careful with the phone.

Yeah.

Because this, we should not use it before we go to bed or a screen. And we know today it's so difficult because we are It's so easy to see screens and have them screens near our bed and continue to put information in our head that creates just a fog instead of finding that peace. So people who are, you know, it's praying, I think it's coming back, this kind of activities, moments where we are with ourselves, and especially if you can also pray in a community or do things with people that are in such interesting things, important things, will help a lot.

Yeah. No, those are good, powerful techniques. So thanks for sharing those. I especially like the breath one. I mean, you know, we breathe every day, but we often forget how to really breathe for optimal life, right? So that's really, really helpful. So, I know you mentioned you have a new book out. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about that, what the motivation was and what you hope people get from it?

Yes. The point is, you see, when I'm talking, I have the tendency to go in very detail. So, it's quite difficult to stay and find something you can grab easily. So, the book Elevating CEOs goes into details of each of those steps.

Right.

That's the 6 steps. So I wrote another book which is very quick and is read in not— in 1 hour you can read it. And I use quotes from wise people and I share my own story, how I face challenges, how I learn to pause. But it's like I'm coming as a New CEO, fresh born kind of, and I have to take challenges, and I'm overwhelmed. I'm running, as you mentioned. I need to, I need to have results. I need to perform, and I'm stressed, and so on. And then I'm faced with wise people: Buddha, Jesus, Confucius. Mother Teresa, people like this. And I use quotes that they gave us and quotes that are linked to a start to pose, kind of. So, and I did this with every step.

What's the name of the book?

It's called The Passage Circle. And you can see it here. It's just new, but So you see the passage circle, how it's looking. And so I offer in this book for each step also quick, simple solution. One of the solutions is learn how to breathe and breathe so you can breathe in coherence. It's called quick coherence. It's well known called HeartMath.

I'm a HeartMath facilitator, actually. I went through that training.

So you see.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

So same I did, same like me. So you see the powerful of just learning how to breathe in coherence and how much it helps to open your brain, kind of.

Yeah.

So for each step, I give this kind of small exercises, powerful one. So you can read it in 1 hour and you can reread, reread it, reread it and practice some of those things. That's the idea of the book.

Oh, that's great. Is it available on Amazon? Is that where people would find it?

Not yet. They will. Not yet because I'm just in the publishing moment. But it's fresh, fresh, fresh. Oh, great. For the time being, you find other books on Amazon.

Excellent. Well, if people are interested in learning more about you and the work you do, how could they find you?

Internet. Type my name. Or you type marcantoine.org. Then you're on my website.

Well, thank you so much, Marc-Antoine. This was a really helpful conversation. And my goal and my hope is that business education starts to move in this direction, accept it more, and I think business and society will be the better for it. So, thank you so much.

Jon, thank you very much for your time. I talked a lot. I didn't let you talk much. Sorry.

No. Well, it makes my job a lot easier when When you have, uh, have something to say. So that's great. Thank you so much for listening to the Total Entrepreneur Mind Body Spirit Podcast. If you liked what you heard or heard something interesting today, please give us a like, share a comment, or better yet, subscribe to the podcast. Thank you.