Joyspan Over Lifespan: Aging Better with Dr. Kerry Burnight

with Dr. Kerry Burnight

Aug 29, 2025 · 00:42:09

Welcome to the Total Entrepreneur Mind Body Spirit Podcast. I'm really excited for today's conversation with Dr. Kerry Burnite, author of Joy Span. And for me, this was the missing link between healthspan, longevity, and everything else we do in life. She talks about the difference between happiness and joy, and she gives us some very practical tips on how to achieve joy in your life. So, Listen in and enjoy the conversation. Welcome to The Total Entrepreneur, Mind, Body, Spirit, where we turn cutting-edge science into practical strategies for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Dr. John Torrance, Entrepreneur Inc. 5000 honoree and professor of entrepreneurial practice at Syracuse University's Whitman School of Management. Each episode, we dive into mental, physical, and spiritual health with expert guests offering actionable insights to help you thrive and perform at your highest level. Let's get started. Dr. Bernight, welcome to the podcast. So great to have you here.

I'm delighted to be here.

Well, before we dive into the concept of joy span, I think it's important that we maybe define joy and what the difference between that and happiness is. You know, I've read a lot of the work of people like Dr. Arthur Brooks and Robert Waldinger, but there is a difference between joy and happiness. So could you break that down for us?

I'd love to start with that because they're used interchangeably in our everyday conversations. But when we look at, for example, what the American Psychological Association— how they define joy, they define it as well-being and life satisfaction. And because of that, it can be differentiated from happiness, because happiness is often circumstantially dependent, right? And can be very, therefore, up and down. Whereas joy as well-being, as contentment, as satisfaction is a more stable construct and also tends to be something that is kind of an inside-out type of situation as opposed to an outside-in. And I think it's fitting for longevity because joy is attainable in all circumstances.

That's a really important distinction. And it's not really about this toxic positivity or toxic happiness or having to feel good all the time, because you can get a lot of joy and satisfaction from doing hard things, which I know you talk about in your book. But I guess it's the difference between eudaimonic and hedonic wellbeing, right?

Yes.

So could you just break that down a little bit for us?

Absolutely. So it's the oldest trick in the book, which is the difference between eudaimonia and, Which is, you know, it's derived from purpose and meaning. And just as you said, it is actually in doing hard things, in going through hard times, that we achieve this. And it's a more lasting contentment than other sort of pleasure-seeking ways to attain a good sense of, say, happiness. And the reason that I like it so much is because in working with thousands of older adults, I haven't ever come across anyone who didn't have some very real challenges later in life. And yet there would be some people who had such an apparent joy and some people who just suffered so much. And so the reason it's the opposite of toxic positivity is because it starts with a really real acceptance of how hard growing older is. And my patients who put their head in the sand and think, oh, if I just work out enough, I'm going to be able to not grow old and avoid all this stuff. I'll never be sick. I'll live forever. I mean, that's toxic right there.

Yeah, there's a lot of buzz about longevity and healthspan. And I guess the— and I've gotten into it as well, right? I mean, I just turned 57 and you start looking at, you know, the back nine, as they say, and you wanna be healthy. But I guess the question is, what's the point of being a perfect physical specimen if you're unhappy at any age?

Yes, that's exactly right. And Peter Attia's great book, Outlive, is so good in that he gives so much in terms of longevity and healthspan. And I am all for that as a gerontologist, absolutely. But the very last chapter of his book, he talks about his experience with really difficult emotional well-being and mental health and how, you know, he has a sentence in his book where all of this is meaningless if you don't like your life. if your wife can't stand you, if you don't have a relationship with your kids. And it was in reading that that I thought, you know, the literature does give us empirical evidence on what enables people to thrive all lifelong. And so in addition to living long lives, in addition to living with optimal healthspan, we need to look at this last piece, which I call joy span. It could be called wellbeing span. It could be called emotional health. It could be called psychological wellbeing. The name joy span had sort of a fun catchiness to it, but it's not that it's anything new. We have researched psychological wellbeing for decades.

But I think you put it in terms that make it very accessible, especially with the zeitgeist right now, right? With healthspan and lifespan and anti-aging and reversible aging. BioAge versus ChronoAge. So I think calling it Joy Span, I think, really frames it well. And for me, it was, like I said before we started the recording, was kind of the missing link. And it made me realize, yeah, there's got to be purpose. There's got to be joy in your life, you know?

Yes.

So is it true that happy people live on average 7 years longer? I read that somewhere. I don't know if you've heard the same thing or if you've come across it in your research.

Yeah, so there's 2 I mean, there's so many wonderful studies that are largely hidden in the academic journals. And one of them that I would point to is our colleague out of Yale, Becca Levy. And what she found is that all variables held constant, people who endorse positive age beliefs, that is, that there is growth, there is continued goodness ahead, live on average 7.5 years longer than those with all of the same physiological variables, but who endorse aging as all decline. And by default, we all, myself included, have a bias toward that. And the reason we do is because from the minute we were born, we were told that old is bad and ugly and less than and Hansel and Gretel, you know, you— there's a witch that will come and actually eat you, you know, because she's old.

Yeah.

And so this multi-billion-dollar anti-aging industry thrives from our fear and self-loathing. And so they've done an incredible job in convincing us that we have lost somehow if we're older. And if we just deny it, or defy it or fight it or pretend that we're somehow— that somehow that will be satisfaction. And it's so tragic because one thing we know— well, with my students at the university, I start with— I put up a pie chart and I said, let's start with mortality. And the pie chart is just a big red circle all the way filled in because there's never been anyone in the history of history that has not died, and that it's not a defeat to die. We're for sure going to do it. And most likely, you don't usually get hit by a bus. Usually there is some time of physical challenges, and that is normal and good and fine. And there can be such contentment anyway.

So you're probably familiar with the work with David Sinclair from Harvard, right? And he's His latest point is that aging is a disease state and it's reversible, preventable, and so on. And I get that from a physiological, biological pathology standpoint. But there's also a lot of benefits to aging, right?

Yes. So yeah, there is, you know, David Sinclair's work and then also the Silicon Valley Brian Johnson. Brian Johnson, who has led the big Don't Die movement where people spend so much time and money in order to, you know, to think of aging as the enemy and that dying is something that we can avoid. That aside, I think that what isn't publicized because it isn't in any way lucrative is what gets better as you get older. So the research shows us that, number one, we don't care as much what others think about us.

Hmm.

And it's really liberating. And so I'm only 55 and I'm already starting to feel this wonderful liberation. But my patients in their 80s, 90s, and 100s have continued this where they're living this most authentic, best version of themselves that I really aspire to. Another thing that gets better as you get older is that you appreciate your connections more. And you are able to pick friends and relationships and invest your time in people who really fill you up. Whereas when we're younger, it's sort of out of convenience or just for whatever reason. And other things that get better as you get older or that can get better as you get older, are our appreciation for nature and music and beauty, oftentimes our spirituality and the depth. And one that I love and look forward to is our humility.

Hmm.

Because I think with all the problems in the world, if we could have an increased humility as leaders, as academics, as business people, as parents, What a real shift that could be. And so instead of conceptualizing this demographic revolution as this awful silver tsunami, I think if we could think, wow, in addition to the care challenges, there is a real opportunity to use the strength of an older population to solve these intractable problems.

Well said. That's true. I often say that I feel better now than I did when I was in my 30s. Certainly much more satisfied with my life. So yeah, I think there's a lot to that. When I was preparing for this interview, I was reviewing some of the literature on entrepreneurial outcomes over age 50. And there's evidence that older entrepreneurs who report higher joy and fulfillment tend to perceive themselves as more successful, even if it's less evident in objective traditional measures You know, like wealth and status and things like that. So it seems like in this chicken or egg debate, it seems that working on your joy practices that you've outlined in your book might reasonably come first, right? So instead of saying, hey, I'm going to start my business in order to become happy, maybe working on being happy first is important in your perceived success as an entrepreneur. What do you think of that?

I agree with that. And the literature does support that. You know, when we take the constructs into all these different forms of what would constitute joy or happiness, and you think about things like generosity, positive affect, meaningful connections with others, all those literatures are supporting these outcomes that you talk about, which is, you know, different measures of success, certainly different measures of— Well, longevity, that, you know, living longer, also lower inflammation and differences in antiviral load. So there wasn't anything that I could find that had the opposite relationship of like having joy and then you have worse outcomes. And so I think if it's enabling you to have more success, make more money, make a bigger impact, live longer, live healthier. It seems like we should really be thinking, how young can we get going on this path of prioritizing, prioritizing something that has traditionally— you think, oh, like you said, like, let me get the success and then later on I'll get the happiness or joy. But in fact, it's something that starting young. And sometimes people say, when should I start my— what age do you think I should start my joy practice? And I say, well, what age do you think you should start your physical health practice? Do you want to put off cardiovascular health until you're 60?

No.

The same thing that would help you in your life between ages 23 and 24 will improve your life between 93 and 94.

So I think we're pretty lucky that these things Yeah, and it's analogous to your financial life too, right? The earlier you start saving for retirement, the more it compounds. So yeah, a lot of analogies there for sure.

Yes.

Yeah. So when we're talking about this chicken or egg, you know, being happy first, starting the business first, the fact that these principles apply really at any age, it kind of, it reminds me a little bit about some of the manifestation literature. And I saw that Dr. James Doty gave you a quote for your book jacket. So I'm assuming you're familiar with his work. with his work on manifestation and mind magic, as he calls it. So can we talk about that for a minute? Because there's, you know, the joy— I mean, it seems like a lot of it is mindset, right? Like, you could have— like, the world could be crumbling around you, but if you're still grateful for what you do have, you're going to be better off. So it seems like there's a lot of mindset involved here.

You're absolutely right. And Dr. Doherty passed away not very long after he supported the book. And I was so grateful. And he really, at Stanford, lived his life in that way of just such generosity. And his work on manifestation and the work in the mindset literature really does— it really is visible in the longevity literature as well. So So when you expect what I call the decline aging mindset, which has a beautiful acronym of DAMN, when you think, damn, I'm getting older, everything's going to be worse. I'm going to be less relevant. I'm going to be less quick. I'm going to be less effective. I'm going to be less attractive. When you believe that, that is really— that comes to pass. So then you're right. And then you say, see, aging is awful. I told you so. Conversely, when I watch so many people who think, yes, there will be changes, but wow, I can't wait to step into the leadership that I can, you know, bring up the future generations and use my problem solving that has been 50 years of problem solving I am looking forward to this time. I can see myself as this best version of who I am. And then when that comes to pass, you similarly say, see, it's not so bad. So it is very powerful. And that whole book that Becca Levy wrote is all about, you know, quantifying what it means to endorse age beliefs of decline versus continued growth.

Yeah, so there's the deterioration versus the growth mindset, right? And either way, you're going to be right.

Exactly, exactly. And we can't control other people's mindsets. And so that was why at first I thought, well, You know, I started my career in elder abuse, neglect, financial exploitation. And it was— I did that for 20 years. And it was really, really suffering was the world that I lived in. And it was, you know, I'd cry on my way home from work every day at the suffering that people had endured. And I thought that I would spend my whole life doing that because it felt like important work. But when I started reading about things that we could do earlier in life to change these trajectories so that people didn't end up alone and taken advantage of and, you know, in horrible circumstances, that's when I thought, I thought I need to actually get way to a different part of the equation here in order to try to impact lives earlier on so we don't end up there. So it did. And sometimes things that are positive are deemed less intellectually rigorous than things that are heavy and dark. And so when you study, for example, like depression and schizophrenia and a lot of these things, people go, oh wow, that's really, you know, amazing research. When you then turn it to study generosity and mindset and strength. And then it seems like, oh, well, that's fluff. And it's like, I'm willing to take that. Like, that's okay. We can, we can think what we want because when we watch lives improved, it's okay to not be cynical because cynical is easy.

Hmm.

And it's really easy to just shrug your shoulders and go, aging sucks. It's all downhill, blah, right? That's easy. What isn't easy is to dig in and say, what can we learn from thousands, hundreds and thousands of people across the world who that has not been the case for?

One of the reasons I got interested in entrepreneurial wellbeing, well, one, because I was that entrepreneur who was sacrificing my wellbeing for the company. But then when I became a professor of entrepreneurship, I noticed that in my student entrepreneurs that They just get wrapped up in this weird hero worship about, you know, the entrepreneur who literally kills themself, literally kills themself for their business. And I wanted to do something about that. And I did think that, you know, with age comes something valuable to share with the next generation. So like we talked about earlier, these principles apply at any age. So in your book, you talk about these joy practices, and that's one of the things I really loved about the book is that it's not just theoretical. It's very practical and actionable. So can you walk us through the 4 pillars of the Joy Matrix?

Certainly, yes. So in science, you know, a matrix is made up of elements. And so in digging really deep into it, I found that there was grouping in the elements of what enabled some people to thrive. And so there are 4, and it would have been so lovely for me if they had spelled out a catchy acronym, But they didn't. And so ultimately I said I have to just get— use the words that they were. But the good news is, of the 4 things, it starts and ends with a G, so that's something. So the first G is grow, and I put them all as verbs because they all take work. So it doesn't just happen that you continue to grow all lifelong. It's a choice to think What's next? What am I interested in? What have, you know, I've— for example, I finished a book, which was a lifelong goal, and it does feel great, but also, okay, now, now what's next? And it's going to be different for everyone's path, but continuing to do hard things, to expect more for yourself, from yourself is, you know, is the first essential non-negotiable element— grow. The second one is connect. And I think by now we all know the detriment of loneliness. And loneliness is simply defined as wanting more social interaction than you currently have. So for some people, you, you know, you can have a whole, a whole network of people and still feel lonely. The literature shows that it is as dangerous to us as smoking 14 cigarettes a day. So we've got to avoid loneliness. Even those of us who are introverts still need meaningful connection. And the way that you maintain connection with these long lives is only one way. And that way is to be that friend, the one who reaches out, who does the text, who offers to drive you to chemo, who remembers that it's been 5 years since your dad died. So every one of my patients who has maintained connection in longevity has been the proactive one. Every time I have somebody come in and say, nobody reaches out to me, I don't have anyone, I'm entirely alone, we then say, okay, now tell me about your habits of how you are reaching out to people? And invariably they go, well, nobody reaches out to me. I'm like, exactly. So this— that was the second. So we started with the verb grow, then we went to connect. The third element of the Joy Span Matrix is adapt. One thing that we know for sure is that there will be change. We will either outlive our partners, or our partners will outlive us. We will have new experiences, we will have new diagnoses, we will have mobility limitations, we'll have vision and hearing changes. And the ability to proactively decide that we're going to adapt as opposed to lamenting what was. So again, I have a lot of people that I work with who are so angry and bummed out, understandably, for something that they didn't like that occurred in their life. And then for the next 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, there— that is where they live, in the lamenting and the why me kind of thing. So if we can, when things happen— and it's not if, it's when— feel the grief acknowledge it and decide to journey with the new, the new situation, that's going to make the difference. And it does matter because it's— do you want 30 years of suffering? Because you can easily do that. Or 30 years of contentment because you have learned to adapt and you have chosen to do the hard work that it takes to adapt? So we have practices in the literature of what enables someone to adapt. Then the final one is also a G, and that is giving. And so people who find ways to give of themselves are the ones who enjoy their long lives. And the easiest, most obvious way is money, but for most of us, it is not going to be a monetary gift. And so an example that I have is I have a patient who is currently nonverbal. And truly, she is such a good listener because she has developed in her 90s the ability to be such a good listener that even though she can— she used to give great advice, but now I still go and I sit by her bed and I share what's going on. And I can see that she is hearing me. And we have this incredible connection. And I always think of her when I think, oh, what do I have to give? I think forever we have so much to give. And it might be something simple like taking lemons from your backyard and going over to your next-door neighbor. It might be something like, wow, my neighbor has 4 kids as a single mother. I wonder if at dinnertime I could go hold one of those kids. because that's what I used to wish for when I was a young mom. But it again takes a decision and a choice and effort and the rejection of the societal message that you have nothing left to give, because that is a lie.

And it strikes me that these 4 pillars— grow, adapt, connect, and give— are also 4 pillars of successful entrepreneurship. Right? There's, there's a lot of overlap there. And I think that's, uh, yeah, that's, that's a really cool connection. Um, you know, especially—

I had that realization. I, I was in Idaho and I was on a long, long hike this last weekend, and I was quite behind my husband. And so I had all this time just to think. And I was thinking about, gosh, how did it happen that this dream of writing a book and getting on the New York Times bestselling list, like, how how did that happen? And as I was thinking through all the steps, I was thinking, oh my goodness, I could easily put it in the Joy Span Matrix because I really did have to start with growing. Then I had to reach out to all these different people saying, I don't know how to write a book. I don't know who is a literary agent and what is a good publisher and all this kinds of stuff. And then I really had to adapt because, um, the editor had to leave and couldn't edit the book. And then when it was time for marketing, the marketing person also left the publisher. And so I was like, well, that took some adapting. And then this part now is the giving part, the part to think, okay, if it's not about just selling books, it's about finding ways to walk alongside other people in their long lives. So yeah, I think it's It's kind of a handy matrix.

What you said earlier about, you know, if you want to have friends or have social connections, then be a friend and provide social connections. And it seems like with the giving as well, like if you want to be involved in giving, then part of that is also receiving. And I've heard you talk about independence versus interdependence. And in our culture, we're supposed to be really independent and not rely on other people. But I know there is an aspect of being a good receiver that's also really helpful in this.

Yes. Oh, I'm so glad that you bring that up. So I have a lot of people who come and say, well, my life will be great as long as I'm independent. And I think that is setting yourself up for not a good situation because humans weren't ever really independent. We always were interdependent. We just really maybe didn't recognize it. There's a beautiful book called Dilemmas of Dependency by Wendy Lustbader, who talks about in the same way that it feels so good to be the giver, we are enabling our family members to get that good feeling and that good sense of self when we learn to be a good receiver. And so everybody's fear of, I just don't want to be a burden can also be reframed in saying, my family are good people and they will like to come alongside me when I need some assistance because all humans do. And I think like taking off that huge thing of like, I must never be a burden in any way, can be really helpful for people.

And there is the, you know, the difference between survival of the fittest and, you know, only the the strong survive and the competition versus collaboration, right? Humans work better in collaborative environments and businesses do better in that regard too.

Yeah.

And it kind of, it brings me back to, you know, James Doty's work in manifestation. And I talked to a few spiritual leaders who, you know, people who say, I just wanna feel unconditional love, their response is, well then give unconditional love, right? You can experience unconditional love, you can experience whatever it is, by being it or giving it, right? Not just always receiving it. So it's a really interesting dynamic, I think.

It is. And we have more capacity as we get older to go about improving it in a way that maybe when we were younger, with all the demands that we had on us, we couldn't be as— maybe, I don't know, I shouldn't say couldn't, 'cause I think you can, We maybe didn't put enough attention to it. And so we can start to think, you know, it's— of course love is real and it's so powerful, and I can attend to it and foster it and give it and embody it. Because again, hate is really real and powerful too. and going around spreading it, you know, is effective and common. And so on the other hand, we can choose to go, okay, gosh, how could I receive love by giving love?

Let's talk about adaptability, 'cause you mentioned that as one of the parts of the matrix. And that's a core competency for entrepreneurs too. You have to adapt. So it seems to me that as you get older, and you have to adapt. I mean, there's gonna be a lot, like, if the longer you live, the more loved ones you lose, right? So there's a big part of that. So have you seen this in your patients, or how do you help people, or how do you see people successfully age and maintain their joy while the people that are important to them keep dying around them?

I love that. So my mom is 96 years old, and She's a good example of a lot of these principles because she has put them into play about 20 years ago when I started doing the research. People who are on Instagram can follow us at the_gerontologist. So at 96 years old, my mom has outlived, I would say, 99% of her friends and her husband, my dad. And I think like the first step is actually interestingly humility. Because when we recognize that it is not unique, it's not really even a surprise that people around you are going to pass away. It's also not a tragedy that you get a tough diagnosis. I think when you start with that, you go, yeah, wow, I didn't know that I was going to have macular degeneration and not be able to read or drive. I was not expecting that. And yet, of course, humans get stuff. This is my thing. How I carry my thing is how I'm going to adapt. And you know that Man's Search for Meaning, that Viktor Frankl book that so many of us have changed our lives? I mean, what he said was, in even the worst circumstances— and what could be worse than a concentration concentration camp, you can maintain your freedom. I mean, talk about the ultimate adapting. So I think if I should get a diagnosis, for example, of ALS, you know, that's a really hard diagnosis that I have some patients who are living with that. Like, could I still internally find a way to be okay? Yeah, I think, I think with work, We can.

Yeah.

Not because it's easy, but because the alternative is worse. Like to get a big whammy of a loss or a diagnosis and not adapt to it and suffer and shake your fist at it. If it worked, I would say go for it. But all I see it bringing is decades of suffering. And so I think it's like, guy, let's choose the lesser of two evils. Find a way to adapt to the, the rough thing.

Yeah, and it is a choice, right? It kind of reminds me of Nelson Mandela, his situation being the captain of his soul. Or if you're into Stoicism, Epictetus, who was enslaved but still had a good attitude and was thankful for what he had. So yeah, I think that's, that's really important.

Yeah, I love that gratitude piece. And I think a lot of my patients have— like, one of the joy practices is just the simple gratitude practice of like the minute you wake up, the first thing that you do— and sometimes I just do it on my fingers— is just go. And a lot of times I'll start with like, I'm grateful for this pillow. I look over, I'm grateful for my husband, grateful for these 3 kids, I'm grateful that I can breathe. I'm, you know, just— and every day you can shake it up or you can do it the same, but it does, it kind of like puts you on a path of saying, I can look at what is wrong or I can look at what is right. And there's always much more that is right.

And it seems small and insignificant just to say, oh, I'm grateful for my kids or my spouse. But it's that self-talk and it's that positive loop. And that's the great way to start. So which is a really good segue into the joy practices because like I said, one of the things I really loved about your book was the practical aspect of it. You gave checklists and surveys and ideas. So talk to us about some of your favorite joy practices.

So yeah, that one that I just talked about is a big one for me because I find that when I don't do that, like when I open my eyes and go, ugh, I gotta pay my taxes, I gotta, you know, go to the doctor about my stupid meniscus, like, you know, humans kind of do check off, if you think about that, those are all kinds of things that are like focused on your problems and things you're not grateful for. That's our default. So anyway, that's one joy practice, is like really being very conscious about your gratitude. Another one that I put in the section that had to do with the element of growth, because a lot of times people, especially, you know, entrepreneurs and business people, you have often had a lot of success success in college and then graduate school and then in your career. And you've had— and this question of continued growth sometimes can be challenging. Like, well, I had a patient recently where he said, I've done it all. Everything you can think of. And he, I mean, really kind of from an outside point of view sort of had. So one of the practices I put in the book is just a curiosity checklist. And I just put all kinds of things that you can think of. You know, I'm interested in Bitcoin. I'm interested in programming. I'm interested in classical music. And just without any judgment, go through the checklist and find things that you simply have any interest in whatsoever. And then once you do that, going back and go, okay, how can I capitalize on that? fact that there is some spark of interest right there. If you go through a list of many, many things and don't have one thing that sparks your curiosity, that would be a good conversation to have with somebody that you trust, or maybe even a counselor too, because I'm also really for professional help to try to— because we should have some type of intellectual curiosity, our entire life. And so if you find that you don't right now, that is maybe a sign that there's— that we need to do a little bit of work.

Who are some of your influences? So, you know, as you developed your body of work as a professional, you've leaned on the work of others. So who's influenced you?

I was really influenced by the beauty of Atul Gawande's work, and his book is called Being Mortal. And he is such a humanitarian, and he's a medical doctor, and I just can't recommend his book enough. And then I was also— I wanted to, because I spent so much time in academia, and we would work really hard publishing articles that I'm not sure people ever read, I would a lot of times pick up books in Barnes Noble and flip through to see how they sort of simplified and distilled the work. And so what I tried to do is I would write it and then I would think, people are busy, they're on an airplane, they have their kids and they're walking their dogs all at once listening to this on Audible. So how can we just get rid of the fluff and try to get So I tried to— and then some people said, oh gosh, you know, it's too simple. And of course, you know, of course you're gonna run into that. But to try to make things simple, I think, is sometimes the ultimate sophistication.

What's next for you? What's on your agenda professionally?

So one thing that has been exciting is thinking about— so we all love happy hours, and, you know, happy hours usually involve a cocktail. and some socialization, and I'm all for it. But of late, people have also talked about, well, what if we could kind of do these joy hours where we would get together and it would be intergenerational and it would be sort of these groups of people who are familiar with these constructs and just have some of these conversations of, okay, something that I'm sort of thinking about right now is my giving. How can we— and so I loved the idea of people getting together to continue to do that kind of work. And then, yeah, you know, you think about, I would love to continue speaking about this, and so I'm interested in speaking. And then also I missed the university, so I was thinking about going back and doing a little bit teaching because I think there's so many people who are coming after us who are going to be able to You know, take it even farther than we have.

I can relate to that. Teaching is one of the things that brings me such joy. So yeah, I can relate for sure. Yeah. So if people are interested in learning more about you and the amazing work that you're doing, where can they find you?

So I guess they can go to my website, which is just my name, drkerryburnite.com. And we have a little bit on there and a newsletter and some things. And then this book has some of the information, and that is just called Joy Span.

Yeah, and you can find that on Amazon or pretty much anywhere books are sold.

Yes, happily, anywhere that books are sold. Although I was in an airport and I looked in their little bookstore and it's not in there. So I don't know what it takes to get in there. Yeah, anywhere books are sold, and it's on Audible as well. And people really wonder, what age is it for? Like, is this for me? Let's say I'm only 32. I'm not, but if you were 30, would this— Absolutely. I think that it starts with us and our own aging because we're all aging. And then once you understand it, I think it's then a good gift to give somebody else. What I haven't found as effective is people othering older people of saying like, you're old, you need this book. Because it's not a they kind of thing, it's a we kind of thing. And I have seen that to be effective, or people will get it for themselves and their aging parent, and then it gives something, some good conversation.

Amazing. Well, Dr. Bernight, thank you for joining us and sharing Uh, your work. I think it's really important. And like I said earlier, for me, it was that missing link in the whole healthspan and longevity discussion. So thank you so much.

Well, thank you for having me. I love your podcast.

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