Migration, Entrepreneurship and Finding Meaning in Life with Georges Karam

with Georges Karam

Feb 14, 2025 · 00:40:06

Welcome to The Total Entrepreneur Mind, Body, Spirit, where we turn cutting-edge science into practical strategies for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Dr. John Torrance, entrepreneur, Inc. 5000 honoree, and professor of entrepreneurial practice at Syracuse University's Whitman School of Management. Each episode, we dive into mental, physical, and spiritual health with expert guests offering actionable insights to help you thrive and perform at your highest level. Let's get started. Today's guest is Georges Caron, who focuses on finding purpose over pursuing traditional success. He co-manages the family business, Ailey, alongside his son, investing in emerging companies and developing Solindo Stays, a tourist real estate complex in Costa Rica. His most ambitious goal is to bring his philanthropic vision to life, establishing Ailey, a learning center and trade school with housing for young children, and students in Marbella, Costa Rica. Georges founded Aheva in 2000 while pursuing his MBA, offering tech solutions for call centers. Building on its success, he and his partner launched Atelqa in 2003, which grew to become one of Canada's largest customer contact management firms before its sale to TTEC in 2016. From 2014 to 2019, Georges led global sales, marketing, and operations at Genetec. A leader in unified security systems, and he continues to mentor his leadership team. In 2022, he sold Cognibox, a company he acquired and transformed, to the British private equity firm Apax. Originally from Lebanon, Georges moved to Montreal in 1990 amid the aftermath of the civil war. He's a proud father to Noelle and Joseph and continues to balance his professional achievements with a passion for giving back. You can find George currently as one of the Dragons on Canadian Dragon's Den. George, welcome to the podcast. It's really great to have you. Thanks for being here.

Thank you, John. Thanks for inviting me.

Of course, of course. Well, give us a little bit of background on you. I know you, you've had quite an entrepreneurial history. You're an immigrant to Canada. You've got a really rich history, so give us a little background.

Well, thanks, John. Yeah, obviously you probably could hear it in my accent, I am not a native Canadian. I was born in Lebanon in 1970, so I'm 54 years old. And for those that are interested a bit in the history of the Middle East, the war in Lebanon started in 1975, so I was 5 years old when all that started. So my entire childhood was for us. Like, I was raised during this period where living in shelters, not having school because there's days there's bombs, it was normal for us. And I had the opportunity actually to leave Lebanon when I was 19 years old. So my uncle that lived in Canada sponsored me back then. That was my dream, to leave the country. And I left 2 months because, as I said, my uncle was able to, and Canada was opening its door for like Lebanese immigrants, and we speak French. Technically, you know, I realized after when I get to Quebec that the accent was so strong that at the beginning I wouldn't, I couldn't understand a lot. So basically came to Montreal in 1990 and studied in computer science and got married, started my business at an early age. You know, I think I was 26, 27, had a couple of attempts before then. I had, I moved back to that. I was married then, moved back to Lebanon. I wanted to You know, sometimes we forget the problems. You know, after, I guess, 10 years in Canada, I said, no, I have to go back to my roots. So I sold my house, sold the business, convinced my wife— ex-wife now, but my wife back then— to move with the 2 kids. My son was like a month old. So we went back to Lebanon in end of 1999. That lasted 6 months, and I think it was one of the best decisions in my life because Because you know, it was like stunned there. Like there's no more thinking about having this. I always say about this incompatible wishes. You know, when we want to be back into our country, we're not sure. So I went there, realized that Lebanon, it's my place to go on vacation and see my family, but it's not my place to raise my new family and have my business. So came back determined to start again in 2000, and this is when I. Started my third business in the telecommunications sector, and voilà, 3-4 years after, we were lucky, we had a successful business. Sold it in 2012, so 12 years after. We had like about 3,000 employees, good revenue, good profit. Joined another company, stayed there 3-4 years as a partner, also exited, was also privileged to have a good exit. Then I bought another business in 2019 and sold it in 2022. So I had like 3 different exits in the tech sector. And now I'm living the pura vida since the last 2, 3 years in Costa Rica.

Yeah, amazing. There's a few things in there that I wanted to talk about. So the first is that there is, there's some research showing that Immigrants are uniquely suited for entrepreneurship for a variety of reasons. So I was wondering if you could talk about that first, if your experience immigrating into Canada at a relatively young age and then moving back, did that shape your entrepreneurial journey or did that give you a different outlook or skill set in your opinion?

This is actually a good question because, you know, like sometimes I get asked the question, you know, Always like, were you born an entrepreneur or you or can you even learn to become an entrepreneur? And honestly, I don't know the right answer. What I know and what I tell everyone is like the most important thing is to see if you have what it takes to become an entrepreneur, which is managing risk. Because for me, anyway, my opinion about what differentiates an entrepreneur from an intrapreneur or from another like executive or leader, because we have to distinguish between, let's say, CEO or like a leadership role and an entrepreneur, because you could be a great entrepreneur but not a great manager, and vice versa too. And the major difference for me as an entrepreneur is how you handle risks, you know. And I always tell my friends or whoever asks me this question, I said, look, think about it. Close your eyes and think that you're starting a new business, you have 2 kids, you have a mortgage, you had a stable job, and you decide to quit your $150,000 to $200,000 job. You take a mortgage on your house. You have absolutely no idea if you're gonna make income. Then how do you feel about it? Does it excite you or does it scare you? And this is for me like what entrepreneurship is, you know, because if you ask me to do— go jump off an airplane, I can't. Like, I freeze. Like, Some people will really get so excited about this type of risk. So I think we can— some people handle risks like different type of risk in a different way. And for me, being immigrant, I think what give us is the resilience, okay? Because when you— like when I came back, even as to when I started my career in Montreal, when you go through war and uncertainty for all of your childhood and you don't know what's tomorrow is hiding for you. So somewhere that will develop your ability, I think, to manage risk, because every day was a risky day for us, whether we got to go to school, whether there is school, whether we got to be able to come back home. So I think, and I always say, like, Lebanon, the most important gift or the best gift that Lebanon gave me is this resilience to be able to live And to manage this risk and whether you manage it in your daily life or as a business person, because we don't take it for granted. We come to this country, we have to work. You know, I came, I was by myself at 19 years old. Yes, my uncle sponsored me, but I had to find a job. I was on welfare actually when I finished my university. I couldn't afford to have a job and I didn't have any like financial support. So I was like on 3 months on welfare. Until I was able to find my first job. And all this period, I never saw it as a negative way. I always thought like I had an opportunity to leave the country and start a new life and have a chance to succeed. Because, you know, unlike a lot of people and I that think that everyone can be successful, I don't agree with that. If you don't have the right opportunity and the right environment, Not everyone could be successful, and that's why for me, like a successful entrepreneur, you need to be humble because timing and luck and environment plays an important role in your success. Someone said it; I forgot who. I was listening to another podcast, and he was saying the who, when, and where plays an extremely important role, and this is all about luck. Who are you? Whose your parents are? When were you born and where you were born? And as you know, John, I mean, we both live in Costa Rica most of the time. And if someone living in those little sometimes villages that they have absolutely no chance to succeed, they don't have the same opportunity as someone in New York or someone in Montreal. So that was for me, like, I think what Lebanon gave me, this resilience to be able to live the risk, manage the risk, and accept whatever society has given me.

Yeah, a lot of correlation between just picking up and moving to a new country and taking that leap and starting a business, right? And it sounds like you've got this, you had this attitude or perspective of being opportunity-driven and not resource-constrained, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think that's really important. So you had really great success as an entrepreneur. How did you manage that? Because it can be very stressful. And, and, you know, not only are you new to the country, but you're starting a new business. Uh, sounds like you were just starting a family at the time. So there was a lot going on in your life. How did you keep it all together?

You know what, again, and this is part, I think, how you handle the stress and the risk. And I somehow, I think I was, uh, I was 25, as I said, 26. I'm not sure exactly the age when the first, and I was not thinking. I did not plan to become an entrepreneur. Okay, I was working in a company finally, and I had, as I said, I was married, and my wife had a very good job. So I had finally made it in my previous definition of success because I come from a very humble, educated family. My dad passed away now. He was a lawyer and a schoolteacher. School director, you know. So for him, he always taught us the success— the definition of success for him was to have a good education. You have— and for him initially it was either you have to be doctor, lawyer, or engineer. So I tried to do that when I was in Lebanon before I left, and I failed him. I didn't become an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer. I became— I studied computer science. And you have to be married, have family, buy a house, and go to church. That was for him as a good family man. And for me, like, when I was 25 and I got married and my wife got pregnant quickly and we bought our house and I had a good job, it's like, wow, you know, I'm gonna make my dad proud. And I became successful, but somehow, you know, like, I got at some point bored at work and I was not happy with the way that the owner of the company was treating me as one of his top employees. So I just decided, okay, that's it, I'm starting my business and I think I can do better on my own. So I jumped in without honestly a lot of planning and knowing that I have— I can manage this risk. And I always say, you know, being an entrepreneur and managing risk doesn't mean like jumping off a plane without having a parachute. You have to manage your risk and Back then, for me, it was my wife is working. She has a good job. I'm in a software business. So if I quit my job and I work on the ideas I had, my business partner because I convinced someone else to start with me. He was stronger than me technically because I wanted to make sure that we have a good team. We could stay without income for twelve eighteen months easily because I knew that I. We could pay the rent and pay the bills and so on. So knowing that, I was able to take the risk and go into the entrepreneurship life and focus on the opportunities. And that's what makes an entrepreneur successful, is always looking, as you said, the opportunities and not all of the struggle that you're going to go through. Because if you overanalyze sometimes, you don't do anything. You just have to focus on the positive part of being in business.

Yeah, it's true that we entrepreneurs, yes, we take risks, but really we mitigate risks, right? That, like I always tell people, it's, you know, revert to the worst-case scenario. Like, if you take this leap and do it, what's the worst that could happen? And if you're okay with that, then go for it, right? So like in my case, I thought, well, you know, if my business fails, my wife and I, we can move in with my parents or her parents. And that would have been the worst-case scenario for everybody. And I thought, yeah, we could live with that for a little while if that does happen. So knowing that worst-case scenario is at least palatable, it gives you that confidence, right?

That mitigates it. That's a very good way to say it. It was like, it's not about only like managing risks. Okay, what's going to happen? And even until now when my business became like successful, whenever you are starting a new project or you're doing an acquisition, you're always doing, taking the same approach. You're trying to say, okay, what is the worst-case scenario? And even in terms of planning from a financial, like every year when we do our yearly planning, we always look at what is the best-case scenario, what is the worst-case scenario, and maybe what is the normal scenario that's going to happen. Knowing that of what, because when you plan ahead and you know where you're going, you don't panic. You don't panic because you know, like you said it yourself, let's say after 12 months, if your business didn't succeed, you know that the plan is to go live with your parents or whatever for some time to start all over again. So the fact that you planned your worst-case scenario and you are monitoring your progress in business allows you first to adapt your business plan, see, make changes, because this is also for me one key important part of the recipe of success is to have this open mind to manage and to adapt your business plan. And I've seen so many business, sometimes very intelligent entrepreneurs, that they have this idea and they believe in their idea and they keep going in the same direction without listening to the market or to the client, whatever, and then they end up bankrupt. While if I look at my initial business plan, When we started the business and what we did at the end, what was successful has absolutely nothing to do. It was always in the same field. You know, I didn't start to sell potato. It was always in the telecom business, in the call center and telecom and software business. But it's completely different product because we had to adapt and listen and see that our timing was not good to start this project. And by listening to this client, all of a sudden we ended up doing something completely different.

Yeah, yeah. So you followed the opportunity even once you were in business, right? Yeah, that's great. So let's talk a little bit about what you're up to now. So you've had successful businesses, successful exits, and now you're at a point in your life where you're doing something maybe to ignite your passions. And and I know you've got a cool project here in Costa Rica. Do you want to talk about that?

Yes, and thank you for asking this question. You know, John, like we say always. Money doesn't buy happiness. And I know that this is a very— we always say it after we make money. And I think the problem is it's because we don't have the right definition of happiness. Again, I think when we say that, I think we're saying more about the pleasure and about the short-term pleasure and not the real happiness. And of course, I was— when I was young and naive, as I always say, I was pursuing my— the definition of success for me in terms of business, it was a financial success. Okay. And that's actually something I'd like to talk about it a bit because, you know, I'm in the transition now and try to change my mind in terms of my— to shift a bit my thinking about how do you define success in your halftime and in the half part, the second half of your career. And so I was pursuing the business from a financial and growth, and that was 42 years old when I sold my business. As I said, it was a very successful business. I had already guaranteed kind of— I was financially very comfortable. We were making good revenue, good dividends, and so on. So I was already— I had my Porsche, I had bought my Porsche, my kids go to the best school in Montreal. Have house in the top, like the upper place, Upper Westmount, the rich area, you know. So, and then I realized like it's not giving me more happiness because I was like the same person. I had the same friend. I was fulfilled the same way in terms of who I am as a person. And the only difference, I always say, I used to maybe buy a bottle of wine at $50 at the restaurant. Now I will pay $100 or $200. But I'm not the type of guy anyway that I I like to spend so much money. I don't care about this stuff and doesn't bring me a lot. But I had this comfort to take decision. And the most important thing I think for me was in terms of the making the money was now it's have the liberty and the freedom to decide what I want to do. I think this is for me what's being rich mean is now I can decide based on the income I have, based on the lifestyle I have, Like I, I am free. I am to do what I want to do. And so when I sold my business at 42 years old and even made more money, I realized it's actually creating more anxiety for me. Now I'm still young. What do I want to do? I was not prepared for that. And that was something also I learned. And a lot of entrepreneurs sometimes ask me the questions like, I have this business, it's doing well, blah, blah, blah. Should I sell it? I said, I don't know. I need to do more. If you want me, I have to do more analysis and consultant to understand your business. But I can tell you one thing is, are you prepared to— what are you prepared to do next? What do you want to do next? And this is for me was one of the most important challenge. So that made me realize satisfaction and fulfillment from a professional point of view. It's not about just making the money. Yes, you made the money, you're comfortable, and I wasn't looking for more money. So I was privileged to have— I was invited to this entrepreneurship school in Montreal, in Quebec, that was very unique. They had a unique format in terms of how they were just teaching entrepreneurship. And it was like boot camps. You go, young entrepreneurs go to this school 3 days every month, I think, like over Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And they do boot camp with different, like with other entrepreneurs, like more experienced. So I was invited to be one of those coach for the weekend. They call them the 24 hours. And when we arrived, there were this kind of cocktail to get to know the young entrepreneurs. So they were asking us, they asked us question, what would you like to do something meaningful in your career at some point? So I kind of got like this cool, the business model that they had. It was interesting. So I got inspired by this entrepreneurship school and I said, I'd like one day to build a school for trades because people— doesn't mean always we have to invest in entrepreneurship and the higher education. I think we need to also take care of people that they need to learn trade, that they can't afford to go to universities. And I'd like to do that in one of those underdeveloped countries. And that was, I would say, in 2014. And this is the only project that I procrastinated for so many years. And make story short, like, went after selling my company, as I said, to start a second business with my partner, and then bought this other business. And finally COVID hit, told my kids, let's go to Costa Rica for 2 months, let's go work remote. And we've never been to Costa Rica, and that was in On our list of traveling, so get there. Didn't know a lot about Costa Rica. It was really last-minute decision. So we rented this house on the Pacific coast, and anyway, we ended up being in the area called San Juanillo, and I discovered Nosara. I discovered all this, and I went to buy my first piece of land in Marbella, Guanacaste, not very far from. Nosara. And this is when it hit me, because I realized that we as Canadian or American come to these beautiful countries in thinking that we are investing by buying land and building houses, which is— we are doing this, but in the same time, we're creating like a bigger gap between rich and poor, because as offer and demand. So the fact that we're buying land, the price of land is going up, the cost of living So a Costa Rican person that used to be able to live off, let's say, a 2,000 colones per hour salary, and now it's not enough for them. So we're creating the gentrification. We're actually promoting the gentrification.

Yeah.

I made this offer to buy this piece of land from this Costa Rican woman, and I can see she wasn't happy to sell her land to a stranger. And this is where it hit me. I said, this is where I'm going to build my school of trade because I want to— yes, I love Marbella and in Costa Rica. Yes, I'm going to invest in buying land, but at least I have to find a way to give back. And this is when I said, that's it. This is going to be my passion. This is going to be the project that I'm going to be fulfilled and find my happiness in it. And give back because at some point I think this is one of the biggest, I don't want to say struggle, but challenge of a lot of entrepreneurs. It's how you shift from, as I mentioned earlier, from being focused on numbers and on profitability and revenue to focus on some other stuff that is meaningful in your life and you can keep going and continue to do, to give back and make a difference in life of of others. And this is for me the real success, is like now I can focus on giving back, on trying to help. And this is what drives me like every day now. Like I am so excited about my project where I find my happiness and my passion to get involved and see that you can make a difference and contribute to some locals to make their life better.

Yeah, and I think you brought up a cool point earlier about the difference between happiness that comes from just things that give you pleasurable experience versus things that are satisfying, right? And sometimes you can get a great deal of satisfaction by doing something that's hard or not very pleasurable while you're doing it, but you get a great deal of satisfaction. And I know developing a project like that in a foreign country is not all that pleasurable sometimes.

Yeah, exactly.

But it could be very satisfying. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Well, for me, like, I think part of it because there were the commercial part, because again, like, initially when I bought this land, it was— I bought this land for me. I was looking to buy land and to build a house and have a place for us. And as an entrepreneur, you always look for, like, you look at it as from an opportunity point of view. So I said to myself, ah, might as well, if I'm buying a house, maybe I do a small casita with it and I can rent it. So I can have a bit of income. Then I spoke to one of my business partners and said, yeah, you know what, maybe we'll buy bigger land, you and me. We can put 2 houses so we can have a common swimming pool and then we have 2 casitas. And we ended up buying a big land and as we finished building our first retreat center, now we have a gated retreat center to host a group of either executive, like for wellness retreat for like 12 villas. And 16 people. And that was my challenge, you know, because I went from being an entrepreneur in the technology and the software business to building a wellness retreat center in Marbella, Costa Rica. So I think I found my satisfaction by learning something new, by learning to work in foreign countries. That for me, it was a satisfaction for short term because I knew that I'm doing all this because my real objective is to build this school and give back to the community. Because, you know, it's been known, and I always say, think about the moment where you feel that you are fulfilled. It's like when you helping others gives you some satisfaction that lasts. And yeah, this is for me. And a lot of people sometimes tells me, ah, you know, you're lucky, George, you're doing this for others. And I say honestly, no, I'm doing for myself. I'm like selfish. I do it because I feel good by giving back, and I feel less guilty because whenever I travel with my kids and I see how they live and how we go to some countries sometimes and how much there is inequality— me, maybe not everyone the same— it bothered me. Actually, I have anxiety when I go on vacation. I, as an entrepreneur, I to work, and I feel like when I'm not working and just spending money or like living a life where I see other people can't afford to live and to eat, it doesn't feel good for me. So having this project and trying to help people and give the opportunity for others to come and get involved, I think we do it for ourselves and not only for others, because this is the real I think satisfaction of you're doing it and you're not expecting any recognition from others because that's what's going to give you the real satisfaction.

Yeah. So the trade school and Solindo, the retreat center, and as if you weren't busy enough, you also have a gig as a Canadian dragon on Dragon's Den. You want to talk a little bit about that? And I know I've been following your posts. about Bello, one of your recent investments. So yeah, talk to us a little bit about Dragon's Den and then the investment you made and why and how that's doing.

Well, it's funny, like, and like 5 years ago, it's actually my 5th season. This is like, for the Americans that are listening, this is like the French version of Shark Tanks in the States, as you call it Shark Tanks. Here in Canada, it's called Dragon's Den because we have 2 shows, one for Anglophone part of Canada And as you know, Quebec is a province that is fully French, so we have the Dragon's Den, or Dans l'Œil du Dragon, for those they want to rename. And 5 years ago, I got a call from the producer, which is a white people like us from Montreal. He called me, he said, ah, George, like, I mean, would you like to come? And it was this specific year, the format, they were like, you had 4 dragon that they were like permanent, and one that is invited. They were rotating one chair. It was perfect timing for me because when I say always timing is important, because I had just bought my last business. It's a software for like health and safety. And if they had invited me to be like one of the permanent ones, there were no way I could do it because it takes a lot of involvement. But as one episode, I said, wow, this is a recognition. And I think recognition sometimes, let's be honest, we work so hard and recognition is important. So we do it, we work hard, but also when your work is recognized, you feel you have some satisfaction, you take it. So for me, it was like, wow, this is the guy that came from Lebanon at 19 years old, no opportunity, no money, worked hard, been on welfare, became successful. I want to do it, you know. It was like, wow, like I was proud of my accomplishment for my kids too. I wanted to show them that their dad succeeded in life. So I did this episode and it was really fun. I was nervous the first time, of course, because this is you go and you sit down in front of the cameras and everything. But then when I said to myself, you know, it's, it's a reality show, but at this, at the same time, it's real entrepreneurs coming in to pitch. So I said, I gotta just act as I was doing in some of my previous investment. Like, I receive young entrepreneurs and ask them questions, and whether I tell them either I like it or not. So I did it, and I guess it was successful because the year after, one of the permanent dragons decided to leave. So they called me back and said, Joshua, you did an excellent job. We liked your approach, and we would like you to have one of the seats. And it was like, wow. So I've been doing it for 5 years. We're actually now like going to the studio to the recording in February this year for the season number 15, or I think already. It's very successful, as you know, because we offer this opportunity for young entrepreneurs first to show their product and second to have the potential of getting an investment from one of the dragons. And we give like a hope and we make the young dream about Entrepreneurship. A lot of people sometimes like to criticize the shows because obviously there's always have naysayers and people likes to be negative. But at the end I say think about it like every time you have a successful athlete in the country, you know, especially like in smaller country, like let's say in Canada when Eugénie Bouchard was one of the top tennis player, the tennis players in Quebec increased by huge percentage because they give us hope. We dream about this. Yeah. And I think those— this show, whether in Quebec or Canada or the States, having the opportunity to watch and see that you can dream to become an entrepreneur, and you're giving the positive message to those young that they just need this little push. Sometimes all what you need is a little push that makes a huge difference. So it's a fun show. We go, we And we meet so many, obviously it takes a bit of our time because you have to first, you have like 10, 11 days of recording, then you have to go through all of the offers that you made on TV. And as you know, we have to do due diligence and sometimes we find really good opportunities. So recently last year, I invested in one of these startups, Bello, which is towards like a Nespresso machine for water, infused and filtered water, and it's a huge success. We became like a major partner with the two young entrepreneurs, invested money. My son actually is a young entrepreneur, joined the business now as a partner with them and became like their chief marketing officer, and the company is doing very well. So I yes, it takes time, but I like this. You know, I like to be I like to be busy in different project. Yeah, I take my pills. You know, I'm in. Tdh guy, so I need many projects in the same time. Sure. That helps me. That helps me. I think when I focus on one project, I get bored pretty quickly.

Yeah, I can relate to that for sure. So for entrepreneurs who are pitching for investment, like what? Like you know, just from sitting on that side of the table, what advice could you give them, or what do you look for in a potential investment?

Well, you know, the clichés always say we look different. First thing, honestly, is like, how do you feel about the entrepreneur? Okay, is are you capable of sitting and having coffee with them after and talk? Because at the end, it's all about the human. It's about relationship. You know, they've done some studies to say even in interviews that when you are having when interviewing someone for a job, your opinion about the candidate is built. Or created, whatever, like you make up your opinion in a few seconds at the beginning. It's like the way, and then based on your opinion, whether it's positive or negative, you ask the question to confirm your opinion. So if you like the candidate right away because they presented themselves in a positive, nice way, or they're good looking, whatever it is, and, or they, you like the way how they dress, So you had already a positive opinion and idea about them. So you start to ask the right question to validate that you like them, and or vice versa. So for us, it's almost the same. So when we get the pitch, with the first impression how they present themselves, it's, ah, okay, this guy I can't see myself, or this girl, I can't see myself sitting with them and having meeting. And when you invest in companies, you're investing in people too. So for me, the first thing is obviously how you feel about the entrepreneur, and that sometimes there is some synergy that is created right away. And obviously the second is having a product that is important for us. In my case, I like to be in companies that's a bit in the high tech where I can even contribute to help them, because I'm not a passive investor, I'm like an active investor. I don't do a lot investment, and the one that I do, I'd like to be involved. So definitely the industry and knowing your numbers, knowing your industry, it's extremely important. So have credibility when you're doing your pitch and not just putting numbers, and don't put like numbers just try to impress entrepreneurs. Don't do the hockey stick and show that today you're at $0 revenue, next year when I become partner with you, it's going to be $10 million, you know. And don't be greedy at the beginning, especially for startup. I see a lot of companies that they do— somehow they learn to do this evaluation based on a future value times 20 times their revenue, whatever. And say, guys, don't be greedy at the beginning because the first investors, especially let's say if you're like in the seed money or like angels, those are the most important ones. They're taking such a huge risk. Yeah. In the companies that don't have a product, so the $100,000 or $500,000 that you're looking for at the beginning is going to make you either successful and start a business or not. So don't be greedy to ask for so much at the beginning. Make sure you have the right evaluation to be able to get because we're taking a big risk at the beginning. You have no revenue and we don't know if you're going to be successful or not.

Yeah, that's great advice, and hopefully that resonates. And yeah, I definitely can relate to the— you're investing in the people first, right? Because they're the ones that are going to be able to execute on this great plan that they put in front of you.

So yeah, I mean, yesterday, yesterday, yes, actually I was having dinner with my— one of my business partners, Pierre, that he's the guy that 25 years ago, almost like in early 2000, he invested He was our seed money investor. He gave us $50,000 back then. I was talking to him yesterday because we had an event together. My God, it's been like 50, 25 years. And in 2000, we were looking to raise money for our business. Everyone was telling us no because first it was the year 2000, very bad in terms of raising money. Family didn't give us money, bank didn't give us money. And this guy, never met him before, He actually worked with my business partner back then because they worked together and I was responsible to raise money. So I was getting all contact from everyone. François, my business partner back then, gave me his number and said, oh, you know, Pierre has his own little business. So I called him and we pitched our idea. Never met him before. And the guy liked the idea. And I think, as he said, he saw 2 young entrepreneurs that he trusted. So he Pulled his checkbook, I remember, and he gave us the fifty thousand dollars. And but he actually didn't give us fifty thousand; he gave us five checks of ten thousand dollars. And that was actually the first business lesson I learned from him. He said, George, I'm not going to give you fifty thousand dollars right away. I'm going to give you ten thousand every month, not because I don't trust you, but because if I give you the fifty thousand dollars right away, you're going to think that you're rich and you have money, and you're going to spend it. You're not going to spend it wisely. You know, you're going to spend. faster. So by giving you $10,000 every month, you're going to be more careful about how you're going to spend your money. It was actually a really good business lesson. And the guy, if it wasn't for Pierre to give us this money, maybe I would have given up because we were not able to raise any money and go back to being an employee. And that's why I say sometimes one event, like one meeting, makes it change your career forever.

Yeah, and it's great that you're continuing the cycle, right? You're continuing to give back, and it's just a really great part of the story.

It's our responsibility to give back and to continue, as you said, the cycle. And whether by giving money or like even coaching, because coaching is extremely important and it's available now, much easier and accessible to young entrepreneurs. Back then when you started or I started, Social media did not exist. Was not easy to reach out. I received so many demands sometimes from people that because what they know my involvement, and I find them courageous to take you know find your email or your phone number or your LinkedIn and send you a message say I would like to have and can as much as possible I answer most of them because I have to be respectful to them and give them and letting them know if you try. You never know, but you can get results.

Yeah, that's great. Well, George, thank you so much for spending some time with us. I think your story and what you've got going on is extremely valuable to entrepreneurs at any stage. So thank you very much.

Thank you, John, for doing this. Like I said, you're giving back. It's a great story and I love your podcast, by the way.

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to The Total Entrepreneur Mind Body Spirit Podcast. Spirit Podcast. If you liked what you heard or heard something interesting today, please give us a like, share a comment, or better yet, subscribe to the podcast. Thank you.