The Importance of Digital Wellness in Entrepreneurship with Randy Ginsburg

with Randy Ginsburg

Feb 28, 2025 · 00:30:32

Today's guest is Randy Ginsberg, who is the founder of Third Wall Creative, a content agency helping B2B SaaS companies drive more demand, and Canso, a digital wellness company empowering high performers to build healthier relationships with technology. He's also the author of Adversity Advantage: How to Overcome Bullying and Find Entrepreneurial Success, a book that deeply explores the relationship between childhood bullying and entrepreneurship. Welcome to The Total Entrepreneur Mind, Body, Spirit, where we turn cutting-edge science into practical strategies for entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Dr. John Torrance, Entrepreneur Inc. 5000 honoree and professor of entrepreneurial practice at Syracuse University's Whitman School of Management. Each episode, we dive into mental, physical, and spiritual health with expert guests offering actionable insights to help you thrive and perform at your highest level. Let's get started. All right, Randy, welcome. Really good to talk to you. It's super exciting for me to talk to a former student. I feel it's a really cool full circle moment for me. So welcome.

Yeah, likewise. It's an honor to be on. I appreciate you having me.

So I wanted to talk to you because a lot of the stuff I see from you on social media is really resonating with me, especially, you know, when it comes to, you know, just people's willingness or ability to put down their phone and engage. But before we get into that, just, you know, maybe give us a little background on yourself. Like, what do been doing since you graduated from college? What's your journey been?

Yeah, for sure. So since graduating Syracuse and having you as a professor, initially I had went into the corporate world, was working at Macy's, so massive company, and kind of got a taste of what that was like, you know, 150,000 employees working at scale and a lot of the typical corporate dynamics. So I was doing product development, working on apparel, so helping make t-shirts and knits and sweaters and all that type of stuff. I'd always known I wanted to do my own thing and always known that I'd wanted to work for smaller companies. So after getting taste of a big company, I then switched to a much smaller hypergrowth kind of growth stage startup called Bombas. So they produce socks and they have a really awesome mission component about giving back to the homeless, which was nice to kind of have that social impact and see it done, in my opinion, the right way. And so I spent a couple of years there again, helping build out their product development. unit. And at the time, I'd really kind of come to a head where I knew I wanted to do my own thing. I wasn't sure exactly what that was going to look like, but one thing that had— I'd always, you know, stuck with was writing. So actually, during your class, I had written a book studying the relationship between childhood bullying and entrepreneurship. And that was, you know, a huge writing project that in itself was, I'd say, fairly entrepreneurial, but also taught me a lot of different skills about content creation and marketing. Getting press and PR and everything that came along with going and promoting that. So during that period, I was creating a lot of content for myself on LinkedIn. I was writing a weekly newsletter for almost 2 years, once or twice a week, and doing a podcast alongside that where I was covering tech and early-stage entrepreneurship. And all of this came to a point where I was like, all right, writing is by far and away my most monetizable skill. Let's go try to monetize that. And so noticed a gap where a lot of these technical SaaS companies, especially B2B SaaS companies, were looking for ways to build out their go-to-market content and in some cases even take the really highly technical topics of whether that was blockchain or AI or other things that we're working on and boiling it down into stuff that the layman could understand or even that developers would go and want to read that wasn't super boring and monotonous. And so started freelancing across a wide range of different verticals. The freelancing kind of took off and I hit the freelancer's golden problem of having too much work to take on myself. And it naturally just spun into what's now Third Wall, which is a B2B content marketing agency. Again, working with these SaaS companies, helping them build out their content engines from the strategy, the actual production of the content, and then distributing that across social, newsletter, their site, really anywhere where you can, you know, touch a potential buyer.

Yeah.

Wow.

So there's a lot there that I was mentally just tracking, wanted to touch base on. So the first thing was your role with Macy's. I'm kind of interested to know whether or not you think you could apply an entrepreneurial skillset as an entry-level employee in Macy's. How did that work out?

Yeah, so Macy's was an interesting place because again, one of the biggest companies, I think the way that they operate in general was very archaic. And when I joined, they weren't going through a great period, right? They had a lot of layoffs, a lot of just, you know, stock issues and again, big corporate things that happened. And so when I got there, they had actually sat me down first day and someone had told me, you can go above and beyond and you won't get promoted and you can do nothing and you won't get fired. And so someone as an ambitious person looking to make their mark on the world, that really put me off. you know, at first, and I would always try to get my hands dirty and do things a little bit different, but it was very much a mindset of, you know, we've done this, we've done it this way the entire time, like why change now? And I don't think this is, you can't generalize that to all big companies at all. I'm sure there's innovation and entrepreneurial, you know, ways to go about that. But in this specific case, that was kind of my first foray into corporate life and almost confirmed a lot of the things that I'd thought about the reasons why I wouldn't like it. And so, it was very easy for me. I spent 9 months there and then shifted over to Bombas, and it was just a polar, polar opposite in terms of the size of the company, the quality of the talent, the speed at which they moved. I feel like I learned more in my first few weeks and then especially over the course of the 2.5 years, but even the first few weeks than I did in the 9 months at Macy's.

Yeah. Well, that's quite something that they actually sat you down and had that conversation with you. mercy.

Wow. Yeah.

And then of course, contrasting that with Bombas. Yeah, I love their socks too. I've got a bunch of pairs in my drawer.

I got a discount code for you.

Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about your book too. So the connection between bullying and entrepreneurship, describe that for me.

Yeah. So it's interesting because traditionally you would think of bullying to be this conventionally bad thing, right? It leaves a really negative impact on the person who went through it. It kind of seeps into all these different areas of life, whether that's social work, their general self-esteem. And what was interesting is with a lot of, you know, these different studies, and one in particular that was actually conducted by a Syracuse faculty member, she looked at around 1,000 people, all different walks of life, ages 18 to 65, different jobs, you know, socioeconomic backgrounds. So it wasn't specifically related to entrepreneurs, but what she found was that over 50% of these people actually reported that the bullying had a positive impact on their lives. And so that came in ways of increased sense of independence, increased resilience, increased moral development. So wanting to treat people the same way that, you know, they treat people the right way, so they treat others the same. It was emotional intelligence. And then the last one was also goal attainment. So having that chip on your shoulder, I think there's a really good saying that I heard from a guy named Josh Wolfe. He's a VC, but essentially he said, chips on shoulders put chips in pockets. And I think it's true where there's a lot of, you know, really successful people who, for better or for worse, whether it's healthy or not, they have this thing that really sticks with them and puts a chip on their shoulder and drives them to achieve great things. And so looking at this study that again, wasn't necessarily mapped to entrepreneurs, but seeing, all right, if this is a big enough population, a lot of these core things really map over well to entrepreneurship, right? You have the emotional intelligence that comes along with just being an entrepreneur and hiring. You have the goal attainment. You have the independence and resilience. And so, when I went to go and interview these people without putting these themes and words in their mouth, it kept coming up again and again that a lot of these themes that were reported in that study were also present in their own stories and own anecdotes. And so, it was a really interesting thing that one, I'd seen in my own life just as someone who had experienced childhood bullying, and that's what even served as kind of the the catalyst for the book. But again, hearing it from all these different people, different industries, different ages, and these same themes appearing again and again and again, it was super interesting to see.

That is, things like resilience and emotional intelligence and independence, yeah, all super important for entrepreneurs. And as you were talking, I could, I learned how to read kind of late, and I remember sitting in whatever grade it was and squinting at the board trying to make out the word and You know, a little girl next to me said, well, what are you looking at? You can't read anyway. And I remember that. And, you know, I still think of that. And I think that got me into a place where I was always trying to prove myself or trying to do more. Something so simple. And, you know, it's just a crazy connection. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think even all that to say, you know, people say it's positive, it has all these great impact. There's still definitely plenty of negative impacts and things that stick with you, even if you are someone who's able to, you know, overcome that, see the post-traumatic growth. Like in the book, I tell a story of Tom Ford because as well as interviewing a lot of these primary sources, there's a ton of, you know, secondary research on super successful people who had been bullied telling their own stories. And so Tom Ford, with all of his success, still says that if a group of, you know, 10-year-olds kick a soccer ball towards him and run towards him, he like would shudder and lock up. Meanwhile, you know, he could go and speak on stage to hundreds of people, be on the red carpet, do whatever. But that little moment that was, you know, etched in him from childhood still would give him, you know, fear and anxiety and a sense of uncomfortability. So it's really wild.

That is, that's, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So that, that's a, that's an interesting insight from the book. I love that. So let's transition over to the, the stuff you've been doing with, you know, these meetups and people connecting without their devices. I love that. I mean, everything we hear now, I mean, even the students that are in school now, you could tell they're a little bit anxious. You know, if I tell them, you know, put their phones or laptops away in class, you can tell they, you know, they shiver a little bit. So talk to us about those, um, those encounters or events you've been having.

Yeah, for sure. So the way that that came about was, like I mentioned, for the last 3 years I've been running Third Wall, which is a content agency. So naturally I spend a ton of time online, whether that's for myself, whether that's for clients, whether that's just for, you know, personal being a 27-year-old who's pretty chronically on the internet. And so I was noticing that it started to really negatively impact, you know, the relationships I was having in the sense of I wasn't spending as much time with the people that I really wanted to spend time with. It was impacting the way that I thought about certain things because a lot of the content that you consume very much so subconsciously influences the things that you want, the, the way that you act, the beliefs that you have. And I was also just in this kind of period of, we'll call it burnout, let's say, where I felt like as opposed to going and tackling the things that I really needed to go and tackle, it was very much so easier to just like continue to scroll and scroll and scroll. And so I was super cognizant of this in my own life, and it started going deep down the rabbit hole of digital wellness and digital minimalism and kind of using myself as a guinea pig to experiment with all these different strategies of how I can improve you know, my digital balance, if you call it, in my own life. And that led me to start speaking to a lot of friends and family and other founders that I was working with about how it impacted them. And it was just so clear that this is a problem with a massive total addressable market. It's a global thing for people of all ages. And compared to the size of the market, there's not a lot of, you know, content, products, events really geared towards that. And so being in New York, obviously there's a ton of founders, ambitious people, there's events every night. And so I was going to a lot of different founder events and I was even hosting my own dinners. And naturally when you're at dinner, you're just kind of off your phone. And one of the biggest pieces of feedback that I got from people after hosting, you know, 1 or 2 dinners a week for 6 months was, wow, it was so great to just, you know, be off my phone and be with people. And I think a lot of the people that I spoke to were really craving that in-person connection, especially as, you know, things continue to get more digital. So I decided to, one, start a company called Conso, which is a one-on-one accountability service specifically for founders and high performers, helping them build healthier relationships with technology. So that is, you know, building your personalized digital detox plan and directly integrated into the way that you work, you live, and you unwind. And so building something that you can actually stick to, Because a lot of times people will go, they'll download the app, they'll block the apps, whatever. It works for a few weeks and then you take the bandaid off and you're right back where you are. And so I've been working on that. And as a lead gen source to that, and even separately, just as something that I really enjoy, I've been hosting these phone-free events in, um, New York where it's essentially you show up all around some type of like, do it around an activity instead of just, you know, throwing a bunch of people in a room like a normal networking event. But there's kind of this core activity. You show up, you, you know, check your phone at the door, kind of like a coat check, or if you've been to Comedy Cellar in New York City where they put your phones in the little pouches, put your phone away for a couple hours, and then you're there with, you know, a group of 25, 30 people all doing whatever that activity is. So the first one we did was billiards and board games. There's a pool table, a bunch of board games, pizza, drinks, all that type of stuff. The second one was a bathhouse. So you had the steam room, sauna, hot tub, and that was just inherently—

Super cool.

no phones, so it was easy. People put their phone in the lockers and you go, and there was a restaurant in there and people— we had no end time on that. You could stay until close and people were there, myself included, for 4 or 5 hours and didn't want to leave just because they were, you know, so connected to the people around them. They were having fun. They weren't really thinking about what was going on in the outside world. And then actually in a couple of days hosting a digital detox cafe. So you come into the cafe, you check your phone in, And again, 30 people, there'll be drinks. You could journal, you could speak to people, you could do your own thing, but just creating that environment where you can step away from everything that's going on for a bit and start to connect with the people around you. And I also have a hunch that, you know, testing with some brand partners coming up of when you remove the devices, when you remove the phones, you are able to create a really deep emotional connection with whatever type of brand or product that you were currently experiencing during that time. I think the unaided brand recall is a lot higher because you're removing a lot of the distractions. And then naturally the action that you would take after the event because of one, being able to experience it in a completely uninterrupted state, and then two, having a really positive memory and positive, you know, experience with that brand that was created will then naturally lead you to go search or purchase or whatever that next action may be. And And so first event we did with Opal, which is a screen time blocking app. And so getting really creative of how we can start to not just plaster a logo on or have someone give a speech how you should download, but actually go and use the product. So the first one is when people came in, they scanned a QR code and it used like an Apple shortcut to essentially brick your phone for 2 hours using Opal. So it allowed people to see how the app actually worked. couldn't use their phone during the period. One, because it was bricked. Two, because they put it away. And then when they got it back, they could unlock it and, you know, they had the app. And so again, just experimenting with how you can, one, create these really amazing experiences for people, but also use it as a way to introduce them to products that can actually help them. And then on the brand side, you know, give them customers who are really excited about the products that they're serving.

Yeah, I could imagine the experience in the detox cafe, for example, will be kind of like going to a coffee shop 20 years ago, right?

Yeah.

Where you just kind of sat there and engaged with what was in front of you. So do you see—

One of the biggest things we've got from people is like, I met so many great people here, but how do I give them my phone number, give them an email, whatever? And so it's now started to put like note cards and pens and allow them to go and share that information. Or obviously at the end, once they get the phone back, they can do it. But There's definitely some things that came up that I, uh, you know, hadn't thought of at first.

Yeah, that's funny. We, you know, yeah, we used to have to just write stuff down, right? And get back to each other. So yeah. Now, have you— did you get a lot of people come back, or do they do one and they feel like they got what they needed from it and they're able to apply that?

Yeah, no, people are, uh, coming back. I've had a lot of people who say, you know, let me know when the next one is. They text me. If they're not able to make the one that month, we've been doing like a monthly cadence saying, let me know when the next one is. I'd say right now for this one that's upcoming, there's around 35 people signed up. I'd say around half are repeat people who are back and, you know, we're hitting the capacity on the 35. It's not like there's open spots. It's actually more demand than being able to fill. And so it's, it's exciting. Obviously throwing events in New York City is not the easiest thing to do from a cost perspective and, you know, getting the venue in real estate, but people have shown on this one, you know, we're charging for tickets and they've shown that they're actually willing to pay for something like this, which was, you know, interesting and nice to see that demand and kind of the validation there. So especially compared to other events in New York, which are just super expensive, if you're able to offer something that, again, people enjoy, it leaves that— they're leaving feeling good and you're able to compete with that price. I think there's something there for sure.

Yeah, you know, we crave that connection, right? I mean, we stick with our phones because we think we're connecting, right? But I think it's, yeah, it's just natural for us to wanna connect with other people, you know, on a personal level. So the demo for the people who attend these events, are they young founders? Who are these people?

Yeah, recently it's been founders, creators, investors. So definitely this like, ambitious startup world type of archetype. Mostly I'd say in the 18 to 35 category, naturally, just kind of the way that the tech ecosystem skews, it's been more male heavy. But this one I'm actually very excited. I partnered up with another founder, female founder who runs a wellness community in New York as well. And I think her demographic, because it's very yoga focused and mindfulness focused and the fact that You know, her network in general as a female tends to be more female-driven. We're able to bring that together. And so I'm very excited to kind of see those dynamics at play. So it's not just all guys.

Yeah. So what type of, like, what kind of specific feedback do you get? What do people say? Or can you just see the difference in them? Because I'm really intrigued by this idea and these events, and I could just imagine how impactful they are. So what kind of feedback do you get?

Yeah, I'd say the biggest piece of negative feedback, not that this was even negative, but was the, you know, how do I actually go and meet with these people and connect with these people afterwards, especially if, you know, some people need to leave early and the other people are still phoneless? How do you facilitate that connection? And so that's something that, again, I mentioned the little notepads, but I'm still actively, you know, figuring out the best way to make sure that those connections, you know, stick after the fact. And then the other piece of feedback that we got from the last 2 is that it wasn't long enough. Which was a great sign. And I think there is something to be said, you want to leave people hanging a little bit. You want to leave people wanting more. But the first one was 2 hours. We had a hard cap on the venue. And then, you know, people were sticking around. They weren't ready to leave. They were hanging out outside of it after. And I think that that was really cool to see.

Wow.

And so again, it's thinking about how can you facilitate, even if you're doing something right from like 7 to 9 PM on a Thursday, it's like, what if people want to stick around after? Can you set up something after for that? They go to a bar or restaurant or something to keep that And so those are things that I'm definitely thinking about from a positive standpoint. A lot of it's just been, wow, I can't remember the last time that I was like phoneless or I truly disconnected, or I had a really stressful day at work and it was super nice to be able to put this down. And I think with founders specifically, like, I know in the morning, even though I want, as conscientious as I am about this stuff, I want to be like, yeah, I'm not gonna spend the first hour of the day on my phone or whatever. But realistically, like, I'm waking up, I'm checking if there's any fires, like I'm checking my emails. But towards the end of the day, that's actually where I think I'm able to put my phone away for a little bit. You know, people are logged off for the night. And so being even thoughtful about who the demographic is, but if it is targeted to that archetype, like when do you put it so that they can truly be present without feeling anxious? And that's something that I'm still speaking to people about and figuring out the right, the right mix.

Yeah, I try my best not to look at my phone in the morning, and I do reasonably well with it. But what I've started doing lately is, so when I do get up, I make some coffee, have some water, I'll do Wordle and I'll do Connections, a couple New York Times puzzles, but I won't do anything else. And then I'll set it down and I'll go do something else like a Spanish lesson or something sort of creative.

Yeah.

But then of course, 'cause once you're into it, You're into it, right? There's really no putting it down. But I love the idea of putting it down at night. I've been doing that too, and it seems to work a lot better. It helps me on a bunch of different levels. It avoids, you know, the blue light in my eyes. It starts to deactivate my nervous system a little bit so I can just relax. My sleep's a little bit better. So yeah, there might be something to that. Like, even if you have to deal with it in the morning, Mitigate that a little bit, minimize it, and definitely focus on getting rid of it in the evening.

That's a good idea. Totally. Yeah. I mean, and what I said too is like all of our relationships with tech are different. I think it's very close from an analogy to food in the sense that one, we all have a different relationship with food, but it is very impactful in all these different areas in our life, right? It affects the way that you think, it affects the way that you feel. It can affect the way that you actually act and the things that you consume. And so in order to build something that you actually stick to, you need to be really mindful of like how to set it up so that it's sustainable. And so something that might work for you might not work, or something, yeah, something that might work for you might not work for me and vice versa. And so that's where I think it's really important to build something around those things as opposed to trying to set something that's ultimately unrealistic.

Are there some general tips that could apply to everybody who's looking to Start a digital detox?

Yeah, I'd say the 4 things that are like super low-hanging fruit that anyone can do are one, delete any of your like real problem social media apps, delete them on your phone and use them on your computer. There's just a lot more friction. They're not as exciting. Like Instagram's just not nearly as exciting on your desktop. And if you're out with friends or you're out in these places that you don't wanna be, you know, distracted or tapped in and you don't have your laptop on you, you can't use it. Next one is just significantly like audit your notifications and you can probably cut down like 95% of them off the bat. And especially with the amount of context switching that we do and the amount of notifications that come in and how the apps are designed to continuously want to retain you and get you back. If you're able to cut a lot of those out, you're in a good position. The next one is to be on do not disturb at almost all times. So you can set like You know, bypass certain people that really need to get in touch with you. But in general, I'm kind of default on do not disturb, and that has been really helpful again for just keeping that clarity. And then the last one, which I'd say is probably the least known but is very helpful, is using grayscale mode on your phone. So using grayscale mode, you can essentially turn your phone to black and white.

Mm-hmm.

And again, going on Instagram when the phone is black and white is not nearly as fun. It's not nearly as addicting. Same thing with any of these other social media apps. And you can even set up shortcuts or automations on your phone so that if you have an iPhone, if you toggle the power button 3 times, it automatically turns your phone to black and white. If you toggle it 3 times again, it turns it back on. You can even set it up on an app basis. So when you open Instagram, your phone goes black and white. When you close Instagram, it goes back to color. And so you can get pretty creative. Again, To your specific apps, specific times of day, like all that type of stuff about how it works. And then the one thing that does cost money but has been probably the most impactful for me is this device called the Brick. Have you ever heard of it?

No.

So it's a physical 3D-printed device. It's a square, probably this big. And it comes with a corresponding mobile app where like the other digital app blockers, you can select which apps you want to block. But the way that you activate that and, you know, start to block your app is by tapping your phone physically to the brick. The only way that you can unblock those apps is also by tapping your phone physically to the brick. So if you are going to the office and you leave your brick at home, you're screwed. If you are going to travel and you leave your brick at home, you're screwed. Whatever that is, it's an additional layer of friction that something like an Opal or a Freedom or a lot of these software blocker apps can't provide. And so I keep my phone for the most part, you know, bricked in perpetuity. And then I only, whenever I need social media, whatever that is, if I can't get on my computer, then I'll, you know, retap my phone to the brick. But like, I went for Japan for a month, left the brick at home, my phone was bricked the entire time. And they have, you know, emergency unbricks that you can do, and there's like a finite amount of them. So if you need to get into something for whatever reason, you can. But it's just an extreme level of friction where someone like me who does need that amount of friction, you kind of put the key, throw it away, and you can't get back in.

Yeah, that does sound— well, it sounds effective because it's pretty drastic.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I drive my friends and family crazy because, you know, I turn my phone in do not disturb at night and I turn the sound off, but I usually forget to undo all that in the morning. So, you know, people are calling me, sending me messages, and, you know, I'm not getting notifications, nothing's ringing. So, yeah, it's sometimes a challenge for me to remember to turn it all back on.

Yeah. My friends need to call me twice every single time to get through to me and they want to kill me.

Right.

Yeah.

Or I'll just happen to look at my phone for something else and notice, oh, somebody tried to call.

Yeah.

Those are really good tips. I hear a lot more people doing digital detoxes lately just to do them. And I think that speaks to how important they are, how much we feel like we need them. And probably how effective they are, right? I mean, entrepreneurship and growing a company is about creativity. It's about fostering relationships, collaboration. And those are all really hard things to do when you've got your nose in your phone.

Yeah, 100%. And I think it's all about intentionality, right? Like, I'm not saying anyone to become a Luddite. I'm very pro-tech. I think innovation is fantastic and I'll use every new gadget that comes out, but it's just how do you set up guardrails to be mindful about using it for the intended purpose as opposed to allowing it to use you and kind of divert your focus from the things that really matter. Yeah.

What do you think about these, like Neuralink and like actually connecting our brains to the cloud and that sort of thing? Where, what's your position on that?

Yeah. I mean, as a tech nerd, I think it's like crazy. You know, I'm fascinated by it. I think it's really cool. I'm very curious about you know, how it impacts society at large if they've released some type of consumer version. And that's just the way that we, you know, function. And that's even kind of my hunch with a lot of the stuff I'm doing now is that as form factors become smaller, as the tech becomes more immersive, and especially as the younger generations who have only known this now end up to becoming the educators, legislators, entrepreneurs, you know, the people who really make the world work, There's a lot of second-order consequences that come along with kind of being plugged in from the start. And I'm very curious to see how that plays out. But what I do think is because all this stuff is happening, there will be a premium on a lot of these in-person experiences, this, this natural, authentic human connection, because everything is shifting, you know, to AI and just digitization of everything. I think, you know, people are still human. They still have the natural hardwiring to want to be accepted, to want to be part of things, to want to interact with people. And so I think you're going to start to see people place a real premium on a lot of these in-person experiences.

For sure. Yeah, we still crave that, right? We need human interaction. Yeah. Well, that was great. So if people are interested in finding out more about you and your work, where could they find you?

Yeah, so active every day on LinkedIn. You can find me there. I write a newsletter every week where I, explore different ways to build healthier relationships with tech. So you can find that at readreboot.com. I'd say those are the 2 biggest places. You could check out Kanso if you're looking for, you know, actual actionable digital detox help at kansodigitalwellness.com, K-A-N-S-O digitalwellness.com. And other than that, yeah, reach out. I'm super accessible and I really always love chatting about this stuff. So if there's any way I can help, I'm happy to do so.

Excellent. And in terms of the events, like the detox events, is there a website for that or do they have to be on a mailing list or how does that work?

Yeah, there's the posted through the Kanso site and then also the mailing list. So I'll send that out to the mailing list every time that there's an event.

Yeah, perfect.

Good.

Well, Randy, thanks so much. This was a great conversation. I really appreciate your time.

Yeah, thank you, John. It was great. Appreciate it.

Thank you so much for listening to the Total Entrepreneur Mind Body Spirit podcast. If you liked what you heard or heard something interesting today, please give us a like, share a comment, or better yet, subscribe to the podcast. Thank you.